Nice dude (not), sandman has a point... they'd come over here and rape every woman in your family if it weren't for these guys at least half ass doing there job. Besides, do you really think those Iraqis are going to listen when we are being nice to them? It hasn't worked in the past.
Another glorious episode in President Bush's war on terror. I read somewhere that the US military attracted persons of higher than average intelligence. Higher than what?
It is the Anerican soldier that has kept your sorry ass face feeling and sleeping comfortable on your cum filled pillow at night. In twenty years of serving you and this great country , I have been to 14 countries and 253 cities. I hope you are not American, I would hate to think I placed my life on the line for a low scum bag like you. Fuck You, and your mother. She wasn't a good fuck any way.
True Canuck. But to be honest, there are a lot of examples floating around of this sort of thing. OK - war is hell etc, but the badass attitude seems to percolate down from the very top in the US. At least, that's the way the rest of the world sees it. I'm agreeing with you by the way. I just don't have the same faith that there aren't a hell of a lot of foot soldiers behaving this way in Iraq and elsewhere.
The AF wouldn't get that upclose to the enemy, they'd be looking through the bomb sites.
These dum-shits give GIs a bad name. I was drafted and I still had enough sense to not waste amo on a car.
considering AF SF is front line with the army and marines...yea we would be that "upclose to the enemy" dumbass. i SIGNED loud and proud, and didn't have to be drafted.
joined the AF what a hero, no grade, low pay safe as shit, bring back the draft, because I was drafted does mean army asshole, all serives darft during war time dickhead
I think his point was that the Chair Force doesn't doesn't see much of the enemy in general. Who the heck cares about SF. Everybody's got SF. Why join AF SF when there's the Marines?
Those are some ballin' badass mofos (BAMFs). I mean, you call your wife home that day and she asked, what'd you do? You say hellz yeah I shot at a car and crushed a car with my tank. Who else can say that? That's ballin' I tell ya.
I've seen film clips of individual soldiers giving aid to Iraqi people on a personal basis. My son spent a year there, and we sent him (actually his step-sister's junior high school class sent him) a large collection of "giveaways" they assembled - toothbrushes, soap, pencils and paper, and lots of other common items hard to come by over there, and he and his company handed them out to the locals. We were hardly the only people to do things like this...he noted it was widespread, but little noted in the American press.
But a thousand such caring actions can be obliterated by one mindless display of obnoxious superiority, such as this video. Give a bunch of "kids" expensive toys like guns and tanks, and a carte blanche to use them, and they will find excuses to do so. While the "kids" should be disciplined, so should the leadership that let them believe they could teach such gratuitous "lessons" to a beleaguered people.
that where america steps in, thie video illustrates this (aid); nevertheless, every action has an equal and opposite reaction (unless acted upon by an unbalanced force)
Yo only see here, Chaz, what some people want tou to see. Not as mindless as it may seem, (remember, they had a mission down that street), or, on the other hand, they may have been arrested and punished. They have courts-martial in Iraq. You'll never see that on Glubert. Nor willyou see a fellow go out there with cash to buy that fellow a new car, if that was the case.
These layabouts see only what they want to see in this. Don't join them. Scatman
I AM GOING TO BE BLUNT, FUCK EVERYONE OF U MOTHER FUCKERS THAT ARE JUDGING THE UNITED STATES MILITARY ON THIS VID. WE ARE NOT ALL LIKE THOSE JACKASSES. I AM PART OF ONE OF THE MOST ELITE ARMY UNITS THERE IS AND WE HAVE NEVER DONE ANY THING LIKE THAT!!! THOUGH WE HAVE DESTROYED ENEMY VEHICLES, AND I EMPHASIZE "ENEMY", ONLY WHEN WE POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED THAT IT WAS THE ENEMY AND WERE USING IT FOR THERE OPERATIONS. THOSE IDIOTS SHOULD BE CHARGED FOR ILLEGAL USE OF MILITARY FORCE AND AUTHORITY. I DO NOT APPROVE OF THIS AT ALL. I KILL THE ENEMY AND DESTROY THEIR EQUIPMENT BECAUSE THEY ARE THE ENEMY, THEY MEAN US HARM AND WILL USE ANYTHING THEY HAVE TO DO IT. SOME OF YOU ALREADY KNOW I JUST RETURNED HOME FROM MY FIFTH DEPLOYMENT OVERSEAS, TWICE TO AFGANISTAN AND THREE TIMES TO IRAQ. I JUST REENLISTED TO DO IT FOR FIVE MORE YEARS I LOVE DOING IT EVEN IF IT IS FOR SOME SHITBAGS WHO CARE MORE ABOUT THE TAX DOLLARS IT TAKES TO SUSTAIN THEIR FREEDOM MORE THAN THEIR FREEDOM ITSELF. FOR PEOPLE WHO DONT CARE ABOUT THE SACRFICES WE MAKE FOR THEM. I DO NOT CONDONE THOSE STUPID MUTHERFUCKERS ACTIONS IN THIS VIDEO. IT BURNS ME TO THE CORE THAT SOME OF YOU PEOPLE JUDGE MYSELF AND OTHER GOOD SOLDIERS GOOD MEN ON SUCH DUMB SHIT THAT A FEW FUCKSTICKS DO.
MABY IT ISNT SUCH A GOOD IDEA THAT THE GLUMBERTERS WERE TO MEET BECAUSE I AM A WILD WOLF WITH AN EXTREMELY VICIOUS INTENT.
ARSE, BY READING THE COMMENT YOU POSTED ABOVE YOU WOULD BE THE FIRST ONE I WOULD TURN INTO A PARAPALEGIC!!!!!!
Basically he has a severe case of stuck shift key...
I guess it must be hard to rationalise being send into a war by a government that just wants to make a lot of money for their friends. That terror delusion helps a lot.
At least we don't need a competition for worst manners.
That must be the "bringing the democracy to other people" program: Shoot everybody who has a different opinion, then hold elections.
If it is your caps lock key then you should check if the little light next to the "Caps Lock" on your keyboard is lit, if so press the caps lock key once and the problem should be gone.
I'm with you, too.
TheBug, as you can see, is a yellow contrarian whose bravado only extends to the keyboard. Fortunately, his tinfoil helmet still fits and he can pretend-fight all the evils in the world, that oddly, don't exist.
By the way, Ranger...you all can count on a generous Holiday season this year with all the support here at home. Operation Homefront is a grand success despite what the media have done.
Ranger - If you are a real military man, and not just another character being generated by the Chummin Psychological study, then I thank you for your service as well. We have a group here on Glumbert that is trying to generate responses to use in their "study".
I think if you were with these guys in this video, it would have been a totally different outcome. We all know that MOST of the military does not engage the kind of activity displayed here.
Keep your head down, and stay safe dude. Best wishes for success and a safe return.
Like Christians, real military dudes make these girls real uncomfortable, Ranger. Sort of like a whore in church. Good job. (Thanks for the editorial kudo, Pod.) Scatman.
No worries - s'a bit like having to follow round an old women (Streamy) with a yappy little shitzu (A.R.S.E) who just craps everywhere
For it's small size the little shitzu is so utterly full of faecal matter that one wonders how they can even move. Oh well, gotta keep up the cyber-pooper-scooping!
Fuck, you Americans are really doing some good shit out there. Bless you ranger. Those assholes are the ones that deprive us of our military pride. I call the second punch on whoever wants to be in a wheelchair. I may not be a USMC or U.S. Army grunt like you are (although you said your FIFTH term, you must have some nice-looking chevrons) who's seeing action almost every day out there, I'm still in the Canadian military to do some good.
Peace be with you, and stay safe.
I have read all the posts by "usaranger375" (I'm assuming you mean 3/75 INF) and I am 100% sure he has either never been in the military in any capacity, or that he is some pogue clerk or cook pretending to be a ranger. I've been in 12 years - I can see right through your bullshit.
IT SOUNDS LIKE SOMEONE THINKS HE IS IN OVER HIS HEAD.
HEY IF THIS IS WHAT YOU BELIVE THEN YOU SHOULD TRY LIVING WITH THEM. MABY WHEN YOU SEE THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE MIDDELESTERN PEOPLE THANK US IN PERSON, YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THE FACT THAT SELFLESS SERVICE IS SOMTHING THOSE PEOPLE APPRECAITE OF THE AMERICAN MILITARY AND GOVERNMENT EVEN IF SOME THE POLITICANS ARE IN IT FOR THEM SELVES. KEEP IN MIND WE DO NOT DESTROY THEIR CONTRIES THEIR RADICALISTS DO IT WITH THEIR IDIOCY.
I JUST WANT YOU TO UNDERSTAND THAT I UNDERSTAND THESE PEOPLE MORE THAN YOU UNDERSTAND YOURSELF. I HAVE SPENT TIME WITH THEM, I HAVE SAT DOWN AND ASKED THEM TO EXPLAIN THEIR WAYS OF LIFE A ND VIEWS AND WHAT THEY SEE THE VIEWS OF THE EXTREMESTS TO BE. BOTTOM LINE THE PEACEFUL PEOPLE WHO WANT TO LIVE HAPPY AND CARE FREE IN THAT REAGION PREY TO THEIR GOD FOR OUR SUCSESS SO THAT THEY MAY LIVE THE LIFE THEY WANT WITHOUT FEAR OF THE TERRORISTS THAT RAVAGE THEM. WE AS AMERICANS ARE NOT PERFECT, TRUE ENOUGH BUT WE HAVE THE POWER TO SUSTAIN, EXSTINGUISH, OR CREATE PEACE IF THE PEOPLE LIKE YOU BUG WOULD LET US!!!!
I HAVE SEEN MORE OF MY GOOD FRIENDS DIE IN COMBAT BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHEN YOU WERE NEVER EVEN THERE AS THE RESULT OF LIBERAL IDOCY. YOU WANT SO BADLY TO KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON THAT YOU COST US OUR LIVES BECAUSE OF THE SIMPLE FACT THAT OUR ENEMY CAN WATCH CNN ASWELL, AND IN DOING SO THEY GET TO SEE MORE THAN THEY SHOULD AND SO DO YOU!!!!
ALSO SO WE ARE CLEAR I HAVE VERY GOOD MANERS EVENTHOUGH MY LIFE, CAREER, AND LIVELYHOOD, MAY AT TIMES REQUIRE SAVEGERY, BUT I STILL KNOW VERRY WELL WHEN TO USE EACH OF THEM.
SO MR THEBUG YOU SHOULD STOP WHILE YOU ARE AHEAD BEFORE I SQUASH YOU LIKE ONE.
YOU SOUND A LITTLE LIKE A TREASONIST....... WATCH IT!
usaranger...... i thank you for your service. i think it might be time for you to look for a new job. there are few things as corrosive to the human spirit as malice, PTSD can and will kill you ,,it's a sneaky motherfucker, i've seen it firsthand i am a vet also, although my service could never compare with what yours, i wish you the best
We are all impressed ..... and I will even say in awe of your commitment to your country and cause. And everyone should be grateful for individuals that serve in the military and thank you for your service.
But lets be honest as you suggest - these individuals are idiots and have probably caused 90% of the problems of where we are at at this time. Lets be even more painfully honest and agree that you have no clue as to what these people believe, want or even think is appropriate as you suggest. You are as diluted as your president if you think you can understand any person that can willfully strap explosives to their body and detonate them killing themselves and 10 other people for their god and belief system. The minute Johnny Campbell from Wisconsin can strap a bomb to his bicycle and drive in and blow up a McDonalds for Jesus - then we will understand. Beyond that, this is a losing battle and exercise your buddies undertaking.
Thank you, sir.
God Bless you as well. When it comes to matters of dying and killing, emotions do run high. (JimmyUSA- you may have misunderstood the Ranger in his generalizations as to the "they" he referred. The vast majority of Middle Easterners do not support suicide bombings. The "they" he appeared to be referring was not the ones you mistakenly suggested. Right now it isn't a losing battle...or, haven't you heard. Despite the lillies who have not supported the efforts, our military is in fact, winning. Sad, when our winning strides come as a disappointment to so many in the USA.)
streamy i suggest you enlist immediately,,,, jimmy usa if you read action reports of the marines in the pacific during ww2 you will find numerous instances of men attacking heavily defended position with virtually no hope of survival or success, with nothing more than a satchel charge and a rifle. why do you think they did that?..... they believed what they were doing was right and so do i
streamy ,,,FYI the iraqi's have 75% unemployment, no clean water, a religion forced down their throat that could gag a maggot, 130 degree heat, inconceivable corruption in their own government, religious factions that detest each other and a seemingly endless supply of weapons, that's a bad combination plus all the chicks are dressed in black beekeeper suits for some reason?
you can't keep people from killing forever...,,,not of they really mean it
Now guess what, I have nothing to do with any death in Iraq. I am not a US citizen and if I had any control over the events the invasion would never have happened.
The invasion was a big mistake, but pulling out now would be another big mistake. Since you liike fighting so much, you can be thankful to your government for providing more of it than you will be able to do in a lifetime. Read some about the history of Iraq, the British Empire had a nice short interdiction there, took them about 70 years until they pulled out frustrated.
Chuck--Very good points.
My point to you...what is victory worth? What are you willing to give up or endure for something better? Apparently, you and others want results that can only be attained in a microwave and possibly in your bedroom.
Oh wait, the USA's attempt at democracy took, what, 6-7 months and everyone was on board.
C-Victory...have been down this road before andwe all know that this is a canard. We know that victory will not be a formal surrender (unless your victory has us surrendering) nor will it be everyone waving an American flag. Victory will be an ongoing thing...democratization, local removals of Islamofascism, capital ownership of their oil, decreasing need for military use, etc. All of those things may not happen at the same time, nor at the same rate.
We know what defeat looks like...abandonment of the mission.
To your brilliant questions, lillyboy...
sooooo....you want their oil? No...does it look like it? But, continuing the supply of oil at market prices, etc...cerainly part of the goals. (Note: illiterate one: They need to run their ow oil.)
And who exactly are the "islamofascists"? I knew you would have NO CLUE who they are. They are the ones who kill women and children who don't dress properly...who spread propaganda, that you seem to believe and support, things about the west and why ONLY sharia is the alternative.
Are you talking about your Saudi friends? maybe...things will have to develop a certain way before taking that kind of action. For a chicken who can't stand our military incursions, you really are beating the drums of war with SA. (Chicken Hypocrit)
You know....the ones who were on the airplanes on 9/11?
You finally gonna gather enough balls and go after THEM?
No?
Then jam it, redneck. I would like to sit with you one day...a beer...a discussion...just to look you in the eyes and see if you could muster up the pluck to call me a redneck.
C-
I love the name calling. I'll answer to all of them, little boy.
But, coward is the one you own. (Buggery rents it.)
and, liar.
and, hypocrit.
Known to all.
You are pretty tough, though, big guy. I know where I stand on things. You have to make it up as you go. Which is why I feel very sure your zipper would rust long before you had the fortitude to speak to anyone eye-to-eye and call them a name. Cowards are like that.
Hey, Ranger. Seems anyone who believes strongly in what he does and has FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE OF IT (unlike these girls) is shell-shocked, or battle fatigued...the old terms for PTSD.
Our boss Chumm has friend named Bushmills who has an old Middle-East Russia hand friend named Moses Sands. Chumm has posted on his blog at Townhall.com (vbushmills.townhall.com), http://vbushmills.townhall.com/g/50e8b683-9fab-44c7-acca-2f2c399f58f4, a report on democracy in Iraq dating back to the 2005 election.
Funny things, is these girls would agree with just about everything Mr Sands says (it's a long read) but still, deny it in their everyday actions and speech, because it means they have to give up some precious thing they hate.
They secretly hate you because you make them seem small.
Stream, as before, you need to be reminded that Canuck comes from a different tradition about both "liberty" and the use of military in either procuring it or defending it. Socialists as rule hate the word....and last I looked, Canada is a socialist democracy...which is sort of like a "pretty ugly woman". (remember that old sheep joke, where the fellow chose the ugliest one?...that social democracy.)
Secondly, Canada, being more European than North American, has no tradition of sending its soldiers to die for other men's liberty. Or its own, for that matter....since there's was more or less handed to them by the Crown. We've been down this road with her Ladyship, Tweedle-dumber before, just as she already knows we have no friends in Saudi Arabia, except maybe three of four democracy-loving princes we'd like to see run the show someday. In fact, Tweedle-Dumbest's best friend in the terror movement are closer to the Saudi official religion, so one might refer to his/her pals in saudi Arabia. AQ's beef with SA is simply that they made nice with us in '91 and allowed us to profane Saudi soil then. That was the same reason the Saudis came raging out of the desert in 1920-21 getting rid of the Hashemites, because they'd made nice with the Brits to get rid of the Turks, but profaned Holy soil to do it. (That;s the history in brief...only our girl can;t read it because it gets in the way of his template.)
Thanks for bringing all the new names here up to date on the old names. Scatman
First clue I've got Stream and his hillybilly posse in a dither:
They ALWAYS resort to slagging an historical aly with sweeping insults/generalizations, aimed at the nation as a whole.......
AND AT THE SAME TIME......
stick up and/or otherwise turn a blind eye/and or give a pass to a country (Saudi Arabia) that has produced more extremists and murderers of Americans in the last 40 years, than ANY other country on earth, up to and including 9/11.
canuck, you are forgetting that Stream already told us in another thread that killing US citizens is about the same as car accidents if it is done by a nation that is on good trading terms with the USA...
FUCK YOU CHUMMIN. LESTER B. PEARSON FUCKING INVENTED PEACEKEEPING. ("CANADA HAS NO TRADITION FOR SENDING MEN TO DIE FOR OTHER MEN'S LIBERTY"). I TOTALLY THINK CAMUCK IS AN IGNORANT FUCKING HYPOCRITE, BUT THAT'S NO REASON TO GO AFTER THIS COUNTRY WHOSE FLAG I PROUDLY SERVE UNDER. YOUR JUST AS FUCKING IGNORANT AND HYPOCRITIC AS HIM. I DON'T INSULT THE FUCKING U.S.
I've just seen your posts. I'm quaking in my boots, not because you make inane threats in cyberspace, but because, if you are truly representative of the US Armed Forces, the world is fucked! You make my point for me. My entire family fought in a war which actually was about freedom rather than a foreign adventure about oil. Some of them were highly decorated, but all rarely spoke about their experiences, and when they did, it was softly and with dignity. Promising to turn people who disagreed with them into paraplegics would not occur to them.
Are you sure you're not angryman? He uses caps lock like to make similarly dramatic points.
I wanna defend the U.S military here. Every1 feels sorry for the cab driver have u seen how much they charge for a cab over there???? I have..KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK U.S.A
I WEAR MY WIFE'S UNDERWEAR WHEN I'M KILLING RAGHEADS! AND I'LL KILL ANYBODY WHO SAYS I SHOULDNT. I MEAN, FUCKSAKE, ALL YOU PINKO LIBERAL TERROR SYMPS SHOULD EAT MY SHIT. I LOST ALL MY BUDDIES IN A FIREFIGHT WITH A GERBIL ARMED WITH A TOOTHPICK - THEY WAS REAL BRAVE NOT LIKE YOU ASSHOLES WHO AINT NEVER BEEN TO REAL WAR! WERE DEFENDING YOU FROM GERBILS AND COMMIES EVERYWHERE AND WE JUST GET SHIT FROM YOU. GOD BLESS AMERICA! GOD BLESS ME! GOD BLESS EVERYBODY WHO AGREES WITH ME! GET THE WHEELCHAIRS READY FOR RAGHEADS AND PINKOS!
TIE A YELLOW RIBBON ROUND THE OLD OAK TREE! INVADE IRAN! FUCK IT - INVADE EVERYWHERE! G9O BACK INTO NAM AND FLUSH OUT THOSE GOOKS. FUCK CLINTON! FUCK GORE VIDAL! FUCK JANE FONDA! FUCK HER UNDERWEAR AND HER STOOPID AEROBICS! FUCK EVERYBODY!
Alias? Wow, I had not thought that everybody but myself is using their real name here on Glumbert. At least I am consistent in my alias and I don't use multiple.
Ranger, I was about to say something positive about you until I read your above posting. Unfortunately that last post reinforces the impression that you are an agressive bully who does not tolerate any opinion besides his own.
My point about the whole situation is that it has been a mistake to invade Iraq, especially in the way the USA did it. Though there is no simple answer to anything in the region. The roots for the problems are more than 100 years old, actually some dates back to the crusades. But especially in the last 100 years people in that region have been kicked around by the USA and the European nations, mostly because of the oil. Saddam used to be an ally to the USA, then he was dropped because he got ideas of his own (invading Kuwait).
There are a lot of things that can be said about Iraq and a lot of theories how thing could have been done, but they are moot since we do have a given situation. Right now there is no alternative to massive troop presence in the Iraq until some stable situation can be created. But idiots like those in this video achieve the opposite, as we all seem to agree.
Basically the best you can do to stabilize the situation is to make sure that the average people in Iraq can live in peace and security. But if you happen to have your taxi overrun by a US tank, then what would you tell the friendly Mudschaheddin who knocks at your door and asks if he may store some explosives in your now empty garage?
With invading the Iraq the USA have bitten off a bigger chunk than they have ever thought. It was quite frustrating to watch how most of the things that were predicted to go wrong actually went wrong, including up to the current situation where an open civil war can be prevented only by a massive troop presence.
You do have my respect for wanting to go back there, risking your life wanting to help stabilize this country. Good luck on your next tour of duty (and I mean that despite the threats you are writing here).
But you don't get any respect from me for your agressive boastings about killing and wanting to invade more nations. It will take years to come to install anything resembling a real democracy in Iraq. They had a brief period of that before but it was not worth much as a democracy and it did not last long.
You really must stop throwing those little barbs at your betters. Learn from them instead (tho obviously this is a big ask and we know you'll struggle)
Thanks, Mako
Just making my way down this thread and found here that you wrote words but did not offer anything. I thought maybe your absence might have brought clarity to your small, but confused world.
Oh so sorry Streamy. I was unaware that I was responding to something of depth in your post above this. My abject apologies for not rising to the exalted levels that you...oh..er wait. HA!
Simply looks like you can do nothing but dig; both at others who perpetually best you in argument and your own little hole to wallow and wail in.
I vote usaranger for Humanitarian of the year..... lympics for these recomendations to Usaranger u should watch video amazing racist and zeitgeistmovie.com and as for me joining the olympians ill give ya my adress
Ok just watcheed video clip range rover vs tank and i take back giving out my adress to usaranger dont think my mustang will out run a tank on this snow we have up here in Canada si ti usaranger Hail Hitler and are we O K K K RANGER????LOL
Well, I'm going to give you this: I'll give you the benefit of a doubt, that you really are who and what you say you are, as well as what your name implies. Having said that, here's my offering to you:
One of the things that soldiers who represent any democracy fight for, is just that: democracy. Freedom of thought. Freedom of opinion. Freedom of expression. The freedom to dissent and disagree, without having to brand anyone as treasonous, or "unpatriotic", or somehow less than a human being. You wore the uniform? Excellent. Kudos to you. You served in an occupation (s)? Three cheers for you. But I think you'd better have a serious re-examination of what that uniform you wore actually stands for. You see, when you come out and lambast and insult others after claiming to be who and what you are, you sound like nothing more than a barbaric slug. That's all. The word "professional" seems to not apply to you one bit. Now who's fault is THAT? Mine? Anyone elses? Or YOURS, for coming off and sounding like you do? I made a post already indicating that I thought it was a shame the few idiots in this video might give a negative impression to a lot of people by virtue of their actions (and let's be honest here: they DO look like retards). It does not surprise in the least...IN THE LEAST....that a redneck bonehead like Streamlined doesen't criticize these morons, and cheers on your bellicose ranting. Personally, I think when you carry on like that, you disgrace uniform you wore (wear?) and what it stands for and demean the memory of those who aren't coming back. If you cannot see that, then you, sir, need a reality check or a good psychiatrist.
Also, let's be clear on another thing: soldiers go where they're told to go. Period. They do NOT pick and choose their wars. At all. If your idiot C-in-C sends you to fucking Borneo, to hunt for tropical fungus, then you're going, whether you like it or not, whether you agree with the mission or not. So in a really bizarre twist, you fight for the freedom for OTHERS to express THEIR opinions....but you are not entitled to one whilst serving. You gave that up when you signed on the dotted line. If you're on the level...you KNOW I'm right about this.
So...in the future, try to be a little more professional and articulate in your comments. Name-calling and mindless cheering of the "rah-rah" type displays an appalling lack of undertsanding or sensibility on your part.
I think the ranger was up late drinking and thinking about losing buddies, working his ass off, doing multiple tours of duty....then see's this video and reads SHIT about soldiers and the US, all generalized into a simple (media spun) myopic view, and all he want's is just ONE "first" post!
Sure, we all have our opinions of "the" war, or any war for that matter, but how many of us are "there" right now, living it in technihorror color.
I know first hand from a friend who's been there and another friend of my son's, who is there now as a sniper. The latter being the one that worries me. He left two years ago as a young 18 year old, quiet, smiley, kind, boy, who I hunted deer with. He used to talk about the beauty of the fall color in the trees, the smell of fall, the deer herd and big bucks. Now...(through email) he seem's cold and emotionless, has no response to my deer hunting stories, sends me (very graphic) pictures of his latest "kill" and goes on about the awesome head shot and "I'm up to nine now" boasting!
When people die in war, it's not pretty, not like TV, it's bloody, smells horrible, parts and pieces everywhere, the emotional toll is accumulative, you start losing the "I care" attitude and switch into survival mode, never knowing what's next, or who the enemy is. Is that little kid loaded with C4?, how bout that lady over there?, what's up with that car coming our way? etc, etc. In this video, as far as I'm concerned, the Iraqi's were damn lucky the left with their lives! Universal law is, shoot all looters!
It is HELL over there, we cannot forget that. Most importantly we cannot forget what each and every soldier is going through personally.
If, after going through what usaranger has been through, I read some of the IGNORANT INSULTING SHIT (and that's what it is) that comes from some posters here, I WOULD LOCK THOSE CAPS AND SPEW TO NO END!
I'm thinking we could cut usaranger, the GI in this video and all soldiers, just a bit of slack here...they're the one's who, as canuck has noted, has given up their freedoms to preserve it for others, no matter the personal consequences, no matter how right or wrong this "war" is perceived (or is), it's not his decision to be there, at that time and place, doing what he's under orders to do. It is he and his fellow GI's that are coming home armless, sightless, legless, in a chair, or DEAD!
I can tell by the words written and the emotion that comes through, the ranger is real and is OWED SOME RESCPECT HERE!
That's what he and other GI's will forever get from me!
Any of you thanked a vet lately? Some above have, what about YOU!
I agree with much of what you wrote. My whole point was simply that ranger does HIMSELF more of a disservice than anyone else when he goes off on a rant like that. A shame, really. Because when that happens, I don't think of a professional, honorable man who did his duty proudly; rather, the image that enters my mind is a shadowy figure skulking in a dark alley, waiting to slit some 75-year-old ladys throat to rob her of her pension cheque, as well as for the pure rush of it.
Now if THAT is the image he wants to foster, then so be it.
But then he can't cry foul when folks look at him, and say something negative.
We ALL reap what we sow, Bruddah, because we're ALL big boys and girls.
Good points from Miter and Canuck...
I think that not a few of our soldiers are fed up with what can only be seen as self flattery: "We support the soldiers, but not the war." That, of course, is impossible and is only put forth by those who do not want to be seen as soft or unpatriotic. I have heard too many stories, read a few letters and have listened to a few of our soldiers who have returned and said, in a nutshell, we are doing work and seeing results largely not reported OR is reported so that success is not the focus.
As a professional coach, I can only imagine what could happen if everyone began telling my athletes that they supported them but not their leadership. How long before dissatisfaction and dissention became institutional? This sort of thing appears to be celebrated by some here, with the constant snapshot articles and misrepresentation of the facts...that constantly change as new things develop.
I do not believe GWB has done a perfect job. But, I do not think each step in a war is ever perfect; they all come with consequences intended and otherwise. When the consequences are not what we want, we still need to support the soldiers and their missions. They are best able to go forward confidently when we support their missions, whether we think they are the best strategies or not.
If you don't believe what is being done in the ME is in the world's best interest, including theirs...fine. However, nut-up and then say you don't support the troops' actions. At least then, we have honest starting ground. Fight to bring them home and withdraw. But, smugly pointing out GWB's supposed shortcomings to make yourself feel really smart...now that pisses off soldiers.
The soldiers get sent to wherever by the POLITICAL leadership, regardless of what said soldiers opinions are (which said politcal leadership gives a rats ass about). They get their orders; they go. End of story. Therefore it is ONLY the politcal leadership that should be held accountable, as to where soldiers go, what their mission is, etc. So because of that, yes, it IS possible to support the troops.....but denounce the leadership that sent them wherever.
Stream....Cheney and Bush are NOT the end all to be all...ok?
Thank you, resident coward.
I can only assume you have never been a part of any team or anything of that nature.
Genius...how does one support the players while decrying the coaches?
Great comeback, Capt. of the curling squad.
I think we know who the coward is.
Wait, did you just say "more than you". That is awesome. I have some great comebacks that you will understand:
1) "OH YEAH?!"
2) "YO MAMA!"
3) "NO YOU HAVEN'T!"
Ca-cluck.
What did I just hear/read the third-shift rent-a-cop from Toronto say? be articulate and professional?
Hey, Ranger. Just search this toad's history o Glumbert. he's called you everything from baby-killer to c**k-S**king muther f**ker to you back, and God help you if you ever went to church as a kid. And if you have even an ounce of off-white blood in you...you're dead meat. Of course, that';s all behind your back. We have a lot of fun with Her Sistership...the only freedom this monkey believes in is the sound of his own voice....bellowed safely from the confines of his mother's basement apartment...The Man Den. He's as Red as Lenin's Baboon's ass....so couch everything he says in that context. Cheers
Never has ANYONE here to my knowledge ever disparaged any of the troops serving in Iraq. EVER.
In fact if YOU did your homework properly before coming on here and spouting drivel along with links to pathetic neo-con sources you'd see most times it is the exact opposite - SUPPORT for the troops in an unfortunate situation where their CIC is an idiot.
Strange that you always forget that.
Normally puppets are hand-controlled but you seem to have Bush's cock up your arse working your mouth.
Scatman--you forgot Ca-cluck's most logical connection: If you did not serve in the military, you must be a coward. And the contrapositive, if you did, you must be brave.
Camuck you fucking useless waste of space, when the time comes that you can express some opinion OTHER than "you are a moron", maybe someone will give a flying rats ass whether you post or not. Until then, GO THE FUCK AWAY!!!!!!!! You are just another in a long line of useless tools who come here hoping that someone, please, someone, pay attention to me, negative or positive. You too have outlived your pitiful existence here.
Americans have the most amazing tendency to see things in black and white: good guys and bad guys. I suppose it's something to do with movies. IIRC, the US Army were criticised in the first few hours of the invasion for not doing enough to prevent looting. After all, in invasions of old, looters were "shot on sight". The action in this video was as a result of that criticism, when they were finally starting to clamp down. Unfortunately, as we learned from the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, it's not always obvious what's "looting" and what's "finding essential supplies" in the form of fuel (as in this case), food, and medicines.
There's another aspect of this that's particularly pathetic to those of us who were against the invasion from the start: namely, a tendency to denigrate the troops who, after all, were just doing, to the best of their ability, what our clueless governments asked them to do. So lay off the soldiers, please, and have a go at the idiot politicians and the people who supported them at the time. If you didn't go on a demo in February 2003, I'm talking about YOU.
THE RANGERS DONT NEEDNONE OF THIS SHIT FROM NOBODY. WERE THE BEST AND WE KICK ASS NO QUESTIONS ASKED!
MAKES NO DIFFRENCE TO US IF ITS A RAGHEAD OR SOME CAMPUS PUSSY - IF THEYRE IN THE WAY WE SMOKE THEM. YOU WANT TO BE RUN BY RAGHEADS?
OR PUSSIES? OR DEMOCARTS?
#
FUCKEM ALL! GAS EM AND STOMP EM! ALL MY BUDDIES ARE DEAD SINCE THE BIG GERBIL BUSTUP SO ITS JUST ME NOW AGAINST THE RAGHEADS. FUCK EM ALL!
275 - we all DO see the difference between a 2 and a 3, so please, find another name. The alias thing has been done to death already.
I would like to add that I agree, no one really thinks everyone in the military acts inappropriately just because of this video. As in any specific group of people, there are going to be a few who mistreat and misuse, but the majority are going to be conscientious, stand up, and do what they're supposed to.
I also agree that TV shows too much. Do they not realize that terrorists can and do have access to television programming?
miter, even when you thought "275" was the real one, you still cut him some slack and urged everyone else to do the same. 275 went off the charts with crazy rants, while 375 was merely outraged.
You did us all proud.
The latest National Intelligence Estimate report that made Bush out to be LYING AGAIN (this time about Iran), a has sparked quite an interesting response from the right-wing nutfarm jobs:
Apparently, they're saying that this is all the CIA's fault, and that this is a deliberate attempt/plot to undermine Georgie-Boy, and his GRAND PLANS FOR WWIII. Praise JEEEE-ZUSSS!!!
bush's policy is transparent after viewing pod's movie about peak oil sadam hussein was one of our best defenses against radical islam. he hated them .. streamy we are waiting enlist now i can't wait to see how you handle a multiple tour induced case of PTSD you probably don't even know what it is..you little fuckin cheerleader (did you know bush was a cheerleaser too?) ps...don't those ten commandments say something about not killing
Why do I get this vision of Cheney laying in bed the last few nights, angrily frothing in the darkness "What went wrong? What the fuck went wrong??" If that's true, then the answer is quite simple:
someone....somewhere.....actually started doing their jobs.
Streamy's ode to Cheney as recited nightly whilst assuming the position for his little pal A.R.S.E soul:
Dear Mr Cheney, I know all you say
Is the truth, it’s so obvious, all clear as day
As I lie here believing my earth is so young
I’ll also believe all the dung that you’ve spun
About nukes, big bad ragheads and Islamofascists
And my bible that tells us Armageddon will come
At the hands of your sidekick, little numpty-boy Bush
The dumb one who told us he’s ready to push
That little red button to start world war three
He warned us about it, almost said it with glee
And so I believe you without any doubt
And refuse to listen to those who shout out
That you are a man child with evil intent
A fat neo-controller, a force others hope spent
And I’m also happy to wail shrill and high
That internet articles are nothing but lies
They’re put there to harm you and that I won’t stand
For, Mr Dick Cheney, YOU are MY man
Hugs, love and Kisses, Streamy
PS Can you come speak at our bible reading next weekend? We have a white gown and pointy hat in just your size
A vicious old bastard called Cheney
Was corrupt, dissolute and insane, he
Told lies to his boss and the troops all because
His oil shares had gone down the swanee.
If visions of Cheney give you the hots,
Permit me these simple downhome thoughts;
As he lies there in his king size bed
I'd like to shit upon his head!
Hey Stream......aren't you happy that the "system" is gonna turf this RAGHEAD out? That sonofabitch. How DARE he wear the uniform, and expect ANY consideration???
Follow this story, C.
If he did, in fact, marry to get into the country (fraudulently) what should be done?
Does his service negate his fraud?
Didn't the people who brought down the towers manipulate dishonestly to gain access to our weaknesses?
Yep...by posting what other's think. Your current skill of wonderment is gullibility.
(You know that word is not even in the dictionary, but we use it anyway.)
Thinking...well, maybe that's for another time. (Noticed you did not nor have you really ever answered my criticisms of your links. Maybe it's because you are so nuanced and esoteric.)
So Stream'o'bullshit...let me get this straight... This is a guy who'd already been granted permanent residency and was already serving in the army at the time he applied for citizenship...You appear to be IN FAVOUR of deporting someone who may (OR MAY NOT) have married in order to get into the country...
More importantly this is someone who once granted residency put on a uniform to fight on YOUR behalf?
You are placing this guy in the same context as the 9/11 hijackers, none of whom were granted anything more than temporary visas according to the CIS??
Are you for real or just too bloody minded for your own good (like Bush, Cheney and your little A.R.S.E soul chummy girl)
The article states, "The aggressive prosecution of the case has surprised immigration lawyers who point to a directive that advises officials against pressing to deport acting military personnel unless they have been involved in drug trafficking, crimes against children or violence, or unless they pose a danger to the public. Benkabbou's irregularity over his marriage falls into no such categories"
Now I'd hazard a guess that it could go two ways:
1. Either the intelligence services know more about him than they are letting on, in which case why the hell have they let him go front line in Afghanistan?
2. Or they regard the fact he is a muslim in the armed services as posing a danger to the public.
With the right wing idiots you support leading your country down the shitter, my guess is the latter reason!
Will you sign up to take his place if he is eventually deported?
You, sir are incredible. In the worst way possible
Ca-cluck--I see you did not read what I wrote, as I asked you a question. I don't think you read the articles you cite because they often don't support your stupidity.
Mako--as a champion of illiteracy, I would ask you to read my questions again...without your small head up your loose behind.
I did not imply he was of the 9//11 type...just his methods, should they truly be fraudulent. Isn't that the story, bozo...whether there was fraud? Now, that is why I asked my questions. You and the coward are too bigoted to see honest questions.
Streamy you obtuse little man you claim others' illiteracy and then promptly shoot yourself in your own chicken foot by not reading the article.
The story is not about fraud per se, that is one element of it.
The bigger picture is that it's actually about an Arab American who stands the chance of deportation AFTER FIGHTING FOR YOUR COUNTRY.
Don't try back tracking on this. The story states allegations, NONE PROVED
These are your words:
*Didn't the people who brought down the towers manipulate dishonestly to gain access to our weaknesses?*
Now if that's not some high minded attempt at drawing parallels with the 9/11 hijackers then you delude yourself.
The answer to your question is in the post above - IF he lied about being married then according to his lawyers who NO DOUBT know a hell of a lot more than you, that still should NOT make him eligible for deportation.
Again I'll let you re-read as I know things take a lot longer to sink in for you:
*immigration lawyers who point to a directive that advises officials against pressing to deport acting military personnel unless they have been involved in drug trafficking, crimes against children or violence, or unless they pose a danger to the public.*
Not reporting an annulled marriage doesn't quite make that list there my little BS'er
The "spin" coming from this idiot makes me want to retch. He just CANNOT stand to be wrong, and be made to look like a fuckin' dork (although you'd think he'd be USED TO IT by now).
Correct...you are a stupid plank.
How reliable can an NIE estimate be if it JUST NOW confirms what it should have known THEN? Maybe Iran is being duplicitous.
What does one do when the IAEA determines something else about Iran as recently as 2005?
Stream! You zealot! What is THIS?? GASP!!! Is it possible?? Yes, I think it's true!! The U.N. and the U.S. NIE are ON THE SAME PAGE!!
Lemme now....that's two strikes on Georgie-Boy with TWO collaborating items, bascially saying that George and Dick are....well....basically lying dicks.
Still crying, Stream? Feeling betrayed by your Masters yet?
Interesting spin, C.
You are too narrow here. If it is true that Iran halted it's nuclear ambitions (insert giggle here), why are they enriching uranium?
Also, wouldn't that be seen as a good thing by the administration?
If it is true, wouldn't it be a nice consequence of the Iraq war? (Like Lybia)
Or, do you suppose they are telling th truth...like North Korea?
Man, your side of the argument may have the press and media 9 (and the sheeple who swallow it uncritically) but, gosh darn it, you all can't think your way through a cattle maze.
Forgive me for putting in my tuppenceworth here. I am not a North American, so please tolerate my naivety on matters concerning the Middle East.
Iran = formerly Persia, yes? The Persian Empire was the greatest in the known world long before most parts of Europe, save perhaps Greece, had even formulated written language. What is now the United States was at that time populated by disparate tribes of primitive indigenous peoples, whose culture, although fascinating, hardly stands comparison with the mighty Persian Empire.
Today, the United States does not approve of Iran having nuclear capacity. The United States has lots of nuclear weapons, and has already used two of them in anger. Is Iran a rogue state? How do you define such a thing? Has the United States the right to determine the defence systems of a sovereign state? And would attacking that state make the world a safer place? Serious questions. I eagerly await informed answers.
Yes, you are absolutely correct that the Persian Empire was the founding of many of civilization's principals of culture, art and sciences. I am appalled by the condensation and lack of respect given these people by the previous and current administration, but not surprised.
Those in power are not any better educated (perhaps less so) than any average man on the street, and sometimes they believe that faith is a valid replacement for knowledge and wisdom, and it is not.
Never link power with intelligence, or empathy, as they are very rarely embodied in the same entity.
How true. Respect is something that is all too often missing in the dealing with the near and middle east nations. But respect for the people there has a higher value than for most western nation people.
I recently heard the Iranian ambassador to Germany speak on a meeting with a discussion afterward. It was very interesting how he worded his rationalization about them wanting nuclear power.
The bottom line is that they actually do have a problem with their energy infrastructure since there was not a lot invested since the ousting of the Shah. Nuclear power to them looks like the logical solution since that will keep their oil for foreign sales. On the other hand it gives them the unspoken threat of being in a position to get THE bomb if they want to.
Attacking the Iran would be counter productive. Diplomacy is the best option there, they are already on the road to become a real democracy, though they do have quite some way ahead of them. The bullshit with Israel and the symphatisation with the terroristsis definitely something that warrants some international pressure on them.
The only real deep condescension I see is in the people who think that the Middle Eastern cultures are peopled by people who cannot construct and carry out a democracy. We needed help when we were fledglings...and that help took a war.
Wresting power from fascists bent on one goal and giving it to the people can only come through a war. (Unless of course, you think that western democracies are not, overall, a good thing...at least a better alternative to the thumb of the dictators, fascists and totalitarians who have historically run the ME.)
Sheer arrogance.
The analogies skipped so much history and understanding as to make one sick.
Streamy, you cite history so often, yet you fail to know any.
If you look at any existing democracy you will see that it always took a long struggle until it did hold and it required a struggle from within the country. If you now cry Germany, you are wrong again, Germany was a democracy before it slid into the Third Reich.
I am not saying that you can't help a country to become a democracy, but I am saing it takes a log time. The people have to learn its value, have to learn that the government is not the highest instance of justice, that you have rights you can defend against the government.
Iran is on the way to this (I am not saying they are anywhere close), Iraq yet has to find the direction. It may be necessary yet to break Iraq into a couple countries as there are various ethnics and religions involved which by now are not willing to coexist to quite some extend. The local oil reserves don't make this easier as not all parts of the country have them.
No, war is not the only option to get rid of a dictator or other kind of government of a nation. There are many options, the USA is quite experienced in those ways through experiments primarily in South America. In the past there ere some really uncomfortable democracies which were replaced by far more pliable dictators.
Thanks podman, for the thoughtful reply.
But I still haven't had an answer from the main protagonists in the debate on this thread. Seems to me that - politics aside - there are some fundamental questions here regarding the rights of states to self determination on matters as fundamental as defence.
I know that the Iranian president is often quoted as saying he wants to "wipe Israel off the map", but closer inspection reveals that he actually said "Zionism" which isn't exactly the same thing.
If all countries decided to attack others because of their leaders' remarks, then there'd be precious few left in the world.
Ahmadinedschad is a man of big words, who should not be taken either too lightly or too heavily. The Persians in overall are people who are very good at making a bargain in deals, that can include a lot of drama.
I first would like to say I am sorry for saying some of the things I said. As a couple people stated above I was angry and outraged. That is why I seemed so hostile I just want you all to understand in the U.S. military we become family to eachother. It just saddens and angers me to see such insults toward us we risk it all and I do mean all. It is extremely hard at times and the worse to loose my beloved brothers and sisters even if there are no women in my unit.
C you are right about the professionalism of what I was saying, I admit it wasnt very professional at all. Even so you all must under stand that "hearing somthing gives you an idea of it, seeing it is beliving it but doing it and living it.... well then you know it.
Anyone who is not an american keep this in mind we the American military are the peace keepers of thw world. just think to your selves if america is defeated who then will lend such a large amount of their economy, man power, military power, humanitarian efforts to help those who cant help them selves. So we do not fight for our country only we fight for all who support and need it. Even if none will say it.
Fathom this if N-Korea, Iran, China, Venesuila, and any other places that oppose a free world and free way of life did not have us and our allies to stop them what do you think would happen then. Please think past yourselves.
Ask yourselves this question. What country always sends their people to help those in need and does it rapidly without a second guess?
The awnser is America
It seems the world over likes to hate us until they need our help. I dont hate the world at all and not many of us do. As I said above "selfless service"
I am not ANGRY MAN or usaranger275.
I am who I am and that is who I say I am. No need for lies because my mother taught me that "lies are the fear of the results the truth can bring." There is no reason for me to have fear because the only thing I should fear is GOD and all he wants is to love us all and for us to love eachother!!!
So I can not force anyone to belive me but I can show you have a look for your self.
Ranger, first of all, if you go back on duty good luck to you, I hope you come back unharmed.
Invading the Iraq was simply not right, but now staying there and cleaning up the mess is definitely right. The people in Iraq deserve to have a stable country as much as anyone. Saddam was bad but a prolonged civil war would be worse.
But you should do some studies on history. Many of the nations you list as bad ass are the way they are due to the external influence of the USA and other nations, quite a few due to proxy wars between the US and Russia. As as I wrote in that other thread where I missed the difference between 375 and 325 the roots of many of those problems are quite old.
Afghanistan was used as a battle ground between the USA and Russia, Iran became the Mullah state when they removed the monarch which had been installed by the USA. Korea was another east/west battle ground as was Vietnam.
This world is not black and white, it has a log of shades of grey and many dark corners with nasty secrets.
I am from Germany, so I sure do know what kind of a shitty history a country can have and how many shades of grey there can be (I am 42 to answer any questions in this regard). This is also the reason why I do dislike the call to arms at the slightest cause.
There very seldom was anything like a "just war" in human history. In recent history it was the one in Yugoslavia and maybe it is the one in Afghanistan. Stopping Germany in WWI definitely was necessary, though it maybe should have been done earlier.
In any case, good luck to you, and please don't kill more people than you absolutley have to, these guys likely do have family too.
PS: Funny thing educating me about the Caps Lock key, I do make controller chips for keyboards, some do run your military equipment.
Nicely put ranger, but I think America is not the only country who peacekeeps this modern world. Look at Canada, France, the U.K., even Australia and N.Z. who all play just as big a part in peacekeeping as America does. Some civilians hate our soldiers in the middle east because they think they are fighting for oil and killing innocent children, but, i must say this a third time, are working to make the world a better place.
This is really usaranger375??!!
Holy fucking Christ! It's worse than I thought!
Think on this people.
I'm sure he is an honest man, but just because a person doesn't tell lies doesn't mean they speak the truth.
chummy and pod you are wrong article 1 as well as article 16 clearly state that all earning are taxable. coincidentally i was talking to a friend of mine this morning, a former prosecutor and currently a federal judge. he prosecuted many such fruitcakes and never lost slam dunk
streamy The Articles of the Constitution give the congress broad ranging powers to levy taxes.... i know you tend to reduce everything to black and white but giving money to education can't be equated with invading iraq.
Chuck - The only law for taxing income in the US is for for corporations, there is no law regarding the taxation of individual earnings. This is kind out there but the gist of it is correct.
Republicans are always touting how a tax reduction will always help the economy, If this is true then why not go all the way and eliminate all earnings taxes for individuals. They should be campaigning against the entire federal reserve system if they really believe what they say.
podster “ The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States. ”......
Chuck - As you have noted. No tax on earnings. This issue is more deeply corrupt than most are willing to acknowledge. Because a thin is accepted and normal does not mean a thing it correct. We know that war is accepted and normal, but it is not correct.
Example: The central banks issue credit cards that routinely exceed 20% and sometimes over 30% interest. In most states there are usury laws to prevent loan sharking. How do these PRIVATE banks override state and in many cases federal usury laws?
Example: Earnings spent on food, heat, housing and clothing are NOT profit.
If you know the answer to this, as some do, then you will truly understand the workings of federal and state government.
If you really want the government entangled into your personal life, wait until the "Cashless" society is implemented.
pod it states quite clearly congress does have the power to impose and collect taxes federal law supersedes any and all state laws i wish it was not so but that's how it is i actually wish the federal government would get the fuck out of our lives but case law dictates otherwise perhaps RON PAUL is the solution ps i appreciate your posts and links
Podman's right, Norris. The Income Tax amendment, on paper, only applies to corporations, not individuals. How they get around it is the W-2, where corporations take out individuals' paycheck every payday. There are millions of non-payers out there who refuse to go along, and few indictments and convictions. The company has to collect or they get into trouble, and they won't hire troublemakers. About taxes Republicans are just as cowardly as Dems. But most of the rhetoric coming from you guys seem to favor more taxes , for all sorts of things, rather then less. Cut taxes, you have to cut government spending. And no, the war in Iraq isn't the big bleed. In 1960s, the National defense Budget was over 50% of the total I think, now it's under 25%. Something like that.
chummy...3 things 1.)the war in iraq = ~3 trillion dollars 2.)....show the courage of your convictions, challenge the current tax laws in federal court 3.)i'm not a democrat...i support ron paul
Norris, I didn't make comment about your politics, just about your knowledge. ...which appears to be small. What makes you think I pay taxes? We're all friends of GW, don';t forget. Only the poor pay taxes in America. The rich get off scot free. Isn't that the drum-beat from the monkey house?
the 16th amendment was added specifically to address personal earnings. ...CHUMMY are you aware that encouraging other people to break federal laws is a conspiracy to break that same law and as such subject to prosecution
As a matter of fact, you did far more damage to yourself than to me with the cyber threats. I've been on the end of a few fairly scary situations in my time and I'm still breathing, even if my face does look like an arse!
Look - here's the thing. Glumbert is a cranky video site, right? What sort of people are going to log in? People like me that's who - people you probably think are a bunch of peaceniks, misfits and dorks who don't have a clue about real life, front line combat or love of country. For the most part you're right. I admit that, although there are a few old boys on here who wouldn't want to be lumped into that bracket - the creationists, right wing lunatics and low i.q. rednecks - no names, no pack drill ok?
So don't be too surprised if not everyone agrees with you about the justice of whatever cause the USA happens to be using troops for at any given time. Not everyone on Glumbert is an American, for a start. Not every country has a military which actually encourages its members to "bleed red white and blue".
A wise man once wrote - "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." I wouldn't go as far as that, but sometimes it's necessary to look beyond what the drill sergeant drummed into you at boot camp for a different world view.
I respect your bravery, commitment and obvious love of your country and family values. I realise that only pain comes from losing friends in a violent way. And I can see how angry it makes you that keyboard jockeys like me should have a different view about the military.
But hey - lighten up! This is Glumbert, the Cyber Land of comb-over Swedish cruise ship crooners, 103-year-old Hitlers, limerick penners, swooning Midwest maidens and internationaltimes!
Use it as a place to release your other side - the one that allows you to laugh a bit!
LOL! At bugs unmovable position taken towards stream...I don't Know,Just thought it was funnies y'all!
I haven't chimed in on this thread, until now seeing if cooler heads would prevail, and it seems they have.
Ranger if you read any of my past posted comments then you would know my position pertaining to our current affairs! And a little bit of my own history. Well I have never been to My space so I will go there and see how that works!
I also have a account on youtube where I upload vids not as cool as Miters tho.
felt I had to pull a few cause I pissed off a few middle eastern gents with my views towards them strapping bombs to other peoples kids and telling the parents they would be martyrs, and Allah would bla,bla,bla...
Believe me when I say Its not one sided tho! gwb in my opinion, is a very bad person who with the guidance of Supreme Chancellor Palpatine / The Emperor, Hence the dark side, Have done more to destroy our constitution then most Americans realize. We must form a Rebel Alliance...
Anyhoo My goal is to keep it light.. to laugh as much as you people keep providing the material. I will upload a video over at Youtube and say hello to all. I'll let you all know when that happens for I'm sure you're all a flutter just waiting! LOLOLOL!!
I'm still not certain why Chuck and Arse were going at it? They seem to share the same humor.
In the interests of openness and revelation begun firther up this thread, I am now pleased to permit Glumbert a look at me!
Log on to www.ergremontcrabfair.org.uk to see me, my borther and girlfriend on a night out here in the UK.
Great video. I remember the film of Patton throwing those donkeys off the bridge in Italy because they were blocking his tank column. Made a lot of people mad back home, but he got those tanks where they needed to be, when they needed to be there. I see the same old chimps see the glass as empty rather than half full. Figures.
Hi all - as usual when it comes to Iraq the thread gets long fast so I may as well stick my view in too. No doubt I'll get some Streamy / A.R.S.E soul condescension as a result but hey, bring it on my little fishy bitches.
From where I sit it is perfectly possible to support troops whilst disagreeing with the warmongering cunts who’ve sent them in harms way. To my mind the reason for this is very, VERY simple. These troops are the REAL link we all have with what is going on there; they are flesh, blood, friends and kin.
These are the people coming home in body bags, minus limbs, suffering PTSD, and whatever the fuck else will be caused by dumping that much DU in one country. These are the people we will all be talking to and with about the situation there. It is NOT the fucked up neo-con idiots who sent them there under false pretences who are dying is it Streamy?
And I guarantee you it won’t be those fucked up politicians who you will sit down with and discuss truly how appalling it was. So you see Streamy, your pretentious little suggestion that supporting the troops is impossible if you are not in support of the fuckwits who sent them there is nothing but inane. And also insulting to many.
The guys in this video are doing what de-motivated and undisciplined soldiers (young men) do in any hostile, uncertain environment. This kind of arena can easily breed this type of action. It's been said many times before in this thread, these troops are obviously NOT representative of the vast majority. That matters not one jot when it is only the actions of these fools that people see and comment about. We've all seen this type of shit before anyway:
1. See vids posted showing US soldiers in the back of a deuce taunting Iraqi kids with water.
2. See vids showing Brit squaddies dragging Iraqi civvies out of a protest, shoving them through the door of their secure compound then kicking the shit out of them
3. See Abu Graib / Gitmo / rendition
4. My Lai … the list can go on and on!
Most times it seems these things occur simply as the result of boredom, stupidity and frustration. Now no one died in this particular instance, but you know for sure that a huge degree of resentment was created by the way the tankers dealt with these people. WTF were they doing using handguns for? Exactly what point were they trying to make as if flattening the thing wasn't enough? Did they remove the wreck so it couldn't be used as an IED hidey hole later?
Perhaps it might also boil down to a simple desire on the part of these troops to send a message this way in the hope that somehow the Iraqis will understand that what they are doing is 'wrong'? In this case the message was obviously 'don't loot' but it's tough to know whether collecting firewood in a fucked up environment without basic utilities constitutes looting... and more importantly it’s impossible to know whether these Iraqis knew these rules and understood why this action was taken.
It seems the punishment was meted out rather insensitively but then these guys are not trained to be especially polite!
“Shake a guy warmly by the hand when you meet him, but be ready to kill him immediately” is probably the best way to frame it and rightfully so!
Anyway, I guess it boils down to the fact that as Iraq is now in the main an anti-insurgency mission I can’t help feeling that ‘hearts and minds’ is a term oft used but seldom practiced…If practiced then it sure ain’t being promoted…Would be good to see some good news. If there is some I wonder why it's not being pushed by the neo cons to help bolster their little occupation?
FYI my best mate is in the Royal Navy and deployed a couple of Sundays ago for his third time around in the ME. Normally he is sea-based and therefore relatively (here I cross my fingers) safe. His squadron were using heli-based radar gear to track Iraqi army units near Basra during the first few days. Two of the Sea Kings in his squadron collided in a mid-air. On his return I saw a video he’d made on the way out. He’d been filming on a nice sunny day as they transited through the Suez. He was pointing out the guys who’d died.
Incidentally he thinks Blair and Bush are a couple of lying dicks ref Iraq. But he goes where he’s ordered because that is what he signed up for.
This time around he’s been issued desert dpms and expects to be land based. His wife is expecting early next year so to both him and Ranger…Heads up!
PS Just seen Chum A.R.S.E souling his way into the thread with some real useful insight and high brow commentary. What a simple little thing you are A.R.S.E soul... have you given Ivana one from us all or are you still demonstrating impotence?
Armchair QB--
Sorry you are offended when I say, in all honestly, that claiming to support the troops by declaring "Bring them home!" and/or decrying their leadership as liars, misleading criminals or incompetent is just self-flattery. It makes you lie to yourself and others that you can be included with patriots...only in a smarter, more nuanced way. Tell, where else can one tell a team/unit/organization: "We support you...just not your mission and wht you are doing." Or, "Keep up thegood work! Stay motivated! But, you CIC is crooked and incompetent and you shouldn't be there to begin with."
You craven backstabber. (Bumstabber, maybe) The least you could do is be honest. Tell us you don't support the troops and then we can be on level ground.
And, you have shown me that it really is self-flattery. You want to be seen as a man, but God-fobid you have to take a stand for something right or wrong, which you admittedly don't even know if there is such things.
You have no idea the political motives or backgrounds of our soldiers. (You accuse the neo-cons, as the boogeymen of the day, of staying at home...are you sure? You better check who sent their family members over to Iraq and Afghanistan, little child.)
Further, thank you...thank you...thank you...for exposing what you think all soldiers and the military is like. Like all lefties, your elitism extends only to the point where you have to defend it in real life...then, its the military's job...and then, certainly NOT for anyone else's freedom or liberty...you gutless little boy.
Where's the videos of the troops being hugged? Where' the video's of success? Not here...Glumbert knows its audience. And I do, too.
God Bless your friend for doing his duty, whether he agrees or not. Would you havethe moral conviction to not fight in this war, were you to serve?
Stream'o'Bullshit you are really beneath contempt.... LOL
Honestly you think you hold some form of moral high ground here don't you? Incredible.
The troops come home? No way! They need to stay and help get the place functioning given the current government and infrastructure has advanced to nowhere near the point at which withdrawal can commence. This is reality.
Ultimately responsibility rests at the hands of the Iraqis themselves. But the undeniable fact remains they probably would not be in this situation had your little heroes Dick 'n' Bush not invaded under false pretences in the first place. Like I've said before, Iraq is now somewhere we have to keep moving forward, like the troops on the ground have to.
Don't start with your blather about humanitarian missions and why WMDs were ready to sail through the air - that's all bullshit and you know it.
Decrying the political leaders (let's be honest here; primarily Bush and Blair) is not self flattery. It's simply the truth which you don't like hearing. I know you're trying to turn this around and dress it up to make you look less of a zealot.
It can't work Streamy because you are unable to formulate anything approaching a rational thought in this respect
Afghanistan is a completely valid mission. In every way. Never any claim to the contrary and we should stay whilst the Taliban are fighting (we'll be there a long time though)
Iraq was never remotely in the same category despite your wild claims to the contrary. Never. Bullshit intel cooked up and fed to a public that in most cases saw straight through it. You didn't.
You constantly tell others to go and read up on what gullible means - right backatacha bible barbie-doll! Your constant defence of the rationale for war with Iraq suggests gullibility is your middle name
You can wail away about me, my manhood whatever. Your call. You call me a leftie - whatever.... Actually most people who know me in person think I'm right of centre. Oh well... Guess this shows how much you 'know' the glumbert audience.
Whatever my political persuasion I sure as hell ain't ticking Genghis Khan's sphincter like you and your little club of creationist bell-ends.
Why the hell do you think I would remove support for troops, especially if I or others like me know people in theatre personally? This was the point I made about them being kin. THEY are the ones dealing with the shitty cards dealt them by the war monger you so love. THEY are the ones we talk to about the war with and worry for their safe return
Guaranteed they would rather fight a justly reasoned war but (to destroy your asanine analogy) unlike a football team who, with their supporters CAN get rid of an incompetent manager, the troops in Iraq sadly can't despite many of them and their supporters knowing this manager and staff are a bunch of pricks.
Manager Bush has got his feet up on a desk on Penn avenue humming Cheney whilst having his balls tickled by the likes of you. He ain't shouting support from the sidelines you dickhead. This isn't college football
They volunteered to serve their COUNTRY. They didn't volunteer to serve the personal imperial ends of a bunch of ignorant, profiteering, hillbilly arseholes like the Bush Cheney Streamy and Chumm club. And you have the temerity to say that this action in Iraq is being carried out on behalf of someone else's *freedom or liberty*?????
This, whilst at the same time your little CinC is attempting to cook up yet more agro with Iran (who's people are all positively crying out for Bush to 'save' them, I mean I can barely get any bandwidth because of all the websites devoted to the subject; oh no, it was Burma a few months ago when the net was ringing loud with REAL cries for freedom and Bush rushed to their...oh...urm...gave them a big humanitarian cup of fuck all)
As for moral conviction to NOT fight in the war, I am not in the military so it is completely moot. I have EVERY right to worry about friends of mine who ARE being in sent in harms way for bullshit reasons. I can say with absolute certainty that were I a soldier and had volunteered, worked and trained for long periods with people to do a job where their and my lives depended on each other, chances are that even if it WAS a fucked-up debacle of poor intel and shitty reasoning, if the time comes I probably wouldn't dissent.
I'd be there for THEM and not for the politician that sends us.
Now before your pathetic piety peaks again and spouts off about hypocrisy be aware that some wars need very little call to arms as the reasons for conflict are clear and morally unambiguous. See Desert Shield / Storm and Afghanistan
This invasion and occupation is NOT one of those wars. Some troops may well agree fully that Bush is doing the right thing. Others may not. Political views don't really come into it; volunteer soldiers will fight in it as... that... is... their... job.
I don't know how many times this has been pointed out to you before but your stupidity is amazingly entrenched
See what a draft would do to your constant harping
Really you need to grow up
Maximum stupeo as always (mixed with being a self- deluded, righteous little turd in this instance)
Glad to see you subscribe to Al Jazeera, from whence most of what you un-educated Brits get to see comes from. I was most interested in your interjection of Mai Lai, where, if I recall a squad or platoon whacked a village and were tried and convicted for it. An ABC commentator, Howard K Smith lost his job because in an editorial he stated that while we still looked upon such acts as crimes, the NortViets looked upon them as acts of national policy. (They executed thousands at Hue during Tet.)
You just can't help being on the wrong side. Your pious anti-war cover is just what it is, a cover for killing the wrong people. Cordially
chummy 1.)Lt Calley was the only one convicted...which was later overturned 2.) the NVA were a complete bunch of brainwashed assholes, let's not use their code of conduct as a benchmark 3.) The british press, though given to extremes, are sometimes much more informative than the media in the US..which are not only useless buy apparently dangerous according to usaranger......giving strategic intel during a time of war is a serious crime,,,too bad they didn't execute Renaldo,,,live
A.R.S.E soul just made a minor point of interest... YES I DO watch Jazeera. Along with CNN, BBC, even Faux News for comedy value. Hey, I even watch CCTV as well. You can learn a lot this way.
Very simple - if one watches what's being reported all over the world and, more importantly HOW it's being reported from a wide, wide range of programming, one can build up a picture.
A bigger one than you like to try and crayon
It helps one see how disturbingly prevalent propaganda still is, and how easy it is for people to get sucked in by it no matter how subtle or otherwise. Just like you've been by your little heroes but still can't see it yet.
That's why you're scared.
Others can and do see through.
Nice of you to start railing at the Brits though. Is that your way of attempting to make them feel bad about leaving Basra?
No Arse! Not you! A bit of history betwix us and chum Aka A.R.S.E ! Oh I just caught that! LOLOL!! No A.R.S.E is an acronym Mako has for the many people who post under the caricature chummin! I think It stands for ..area resident ... I forget! anyway I Know its not directed at you. LOL, pretty funny. and
Sorry Arse, not directed at you at all. RF is right. It stands for:
Authoritative - which they like to think they are but aren't
Residential - which unfortunately they are (can be fun though)
Special - 'short bus' special. Very
Expert - Irony there (oh, and needed an 'e' to get the acronym working!)
Ivana is apparently a woman who works with these A.R.S.E soul misfits. I can only assume she has an infinite level of patience to deal with their idiocy, or maybe she just needs the cash.
But as I've said to you and others before, and I'll say it again:
1. I can't honestly recall ANYONE on these threads denigrating the soldiers themselves. At all. Even above, I commented on how people might see this clip, and how it might give a wrong impression on the majority of serving military personnel. That would be a shame.
2. Criticizing the President is NOT the same as criticizing the U.S. as a whole, or even the military as a whole. The military follows HIS directions, and they simply do their jobs to the best of their abilities. That's all. If I say Bush and Cheney are incompetant assholes who are as corrupt as the day is long, then does that make me "anti-American"? Or "against the serving members of the U.S. Military"? Ahhhh, no. This is for a simple reason: the military does NOT go on their own missions; they go because a CIVILIAN POLITICAL LEADER sent them there; therefore, it is THAT decision that is open to scrutiny (as well as the turd who made the decision in the first place). If you (and I'm not saying you do) want to intertwine and connect that rational, then you've effectively elevated your President to "King-like" status, who is beyond reproach and the criticism of which is seen as "anti'American", and representative of EVEYTHING. Sounds ridiculous, dosen't it? Look at Streamlineds arguments....you'll see what I mean.
3. Freedom of speech is a bitch....ain't it? Or even freedom of differences?
Anyhow, respect to you for your service, with all sincerity.
It just bugs me when someone of your knowledge and experiences goes to that level.
So all the hostility is gone and out of my system. Sorry arse for the parapeligic comment aswell as the treasonist thing it was an illinformed and quite dumb comment considering your not American, bug sorry about the squashing you comment and the shitstick riding thing.
I just get fired up when it comes to this stuff, I dont really care much when people insult me but insulting my lost brothers and sisters through insulting the U. S. military on a few dumb actions and by our political leaders. That is what does it for me that is when I tend to loose it and say such things.
So in saying this I extend my deepest appoligies to all of you if I happend to seem unprofessional or offensive to anyone.
As for chuck, miter, freetobe, stream, and everyone else who gives thier support unyeildingly on behalf of all of us serving in the Army, Navy, Marines, Airforce, NG, Reserves, and other services. I would like to say that your support is priceless to us...... Thank You please don't ever give up because it is not an option for us and your support helps more than anyone could belive.
canuck1963Posted just nowThanks for the clarification, ranger.
But as I've said to you and others before, and I'll say it again:
1. I can't honestly recall ANYONE on these threads denigrating the soldiers themselves. At all. Even above, I commented on how people might see this clip, and how it might give a wrong impression on the majority of serving military personnel. That would be a shame.
2. Criticizing the President is NOT the same as criticizing the U.S. as a whole, or even the military as a whole. The military follows HIS directions, and they simply do their jobs to the best of their abilities. That's all. If I say Bush and Cheney are incompetant assholes who are as corrupt as the day is long, then does that make me "anti-American"? Or "against the serving members of the U.S. Military"? Ahhhh, no. This is for a simple reason: the military does NOT go on their own missions; they go because a CIVILIAN POLITICAL LEADER sent them there; therefore, it is THAT decision that is open to scrutiny (as well as the turd who made the decision in the first place). If you (and I'm not saying you do) want to intertwine and connect that rational, then you've effectively elevated your President to "King-like" status, who is beyond reproach and the criticism of which is seen as "anti'American", and representative of EVEYTHING. Sounds ridiculous, dosen't it? Look at Streamlineds arguments....you'll see what I mean.
3. Freedom of speech is a bitch....ain't it? Or even freedom of differences?
Anyhow, respect to you for your service, with all sincerity.
It just bugs me when someone of your knowledge and experiences goes to that level.
Let me remind you, Son, search this canuck fellow on Google, He's been spouting this bilge for years, other sites, not just here. And he lies, just go see for yourself. He's a coward penitent now, saying he only criticizes Bush. Be's called you every kind of butcher...but hey, he's a jovial fat guy in Toronto who's in charge of making sure all the windows are closed in some office building downtown.
He hates you because of you are, an American.
And he hates you because you're a man, while he's only a male. He's as red as Nancy Pelosi's ass. Trust me. God bless, Son
A little disrespectful to call someone fighting on your behalf 'son' you pathetically condescending little shit. 'Sir' should probably be the correct nomenclature. But then that assumes you like to show respect to your betters which we all know isn't the case.
Must be that grey cubicle you work in pressing in around you that builds up the bile and resentment...
Oh, and you're wrong again as usual on all the other 'points' you tried to make.
LMFAOROFL!! ...SON! You refer to Ranger as son! Who the fu,, do you think you are? Colonels Sanders down on some chicken ranch?
Chum, You people have lost your collective minds..LOL..And How old are You 25 maybe 27? Ranger is a lot smarter then that Chum. Go fish in a small poisoned pond. Better yet go enlist and then you can do some talking.
Calling people SON! What a joke! Ranger don't listen to the kid behind the curtain. LOLOLOLOLOL!
Randal, son, take it easy. I know you were a former marine, son. I know your early thirties and I'm mid thirties, son. But I must confess.....I am your father. I was a little pimp by the time I was 2.
Absolutely ranger, 100% support. I have not seen my child in a YEAR. I am in tears, and cannot say any more at this time.
Acknowledgement, appreciation, love and caring. That's all I have to offer.
Well done, and God be with you, your comrades and all who are affected by wars. I too have learned a lesson.
But I still don't trust politicians.......!
usaranger - FWIW...our son is a Captain in MP Army...so far, two deployments over the last four years. Entered the Ranger school deal last summer, and could not quite finish...that is a terrifically difficult exercise, and if you completed it, my kudos, and admiration.
Currently he is assuming command of a brandy new company (all new recruits, and few experienced officers and ranking nco's)....a challenge, since he is expected to get them combat ready by April/May...when he anticipates their deployment to Iraq or Afganistan.
So ......what I say comes from that concern.
Yes.........one CAN support troops and not their leadership. Lots of discusison on that topic.
One can also argue about their leadership...classic activity among democracies...fun too. We, in the lower 48, who are expected to protect the rest of the civilized world against aggression, totalitarianism, and all sorts of unhappy "isms", are target for those whose interests are clearly dependent on America's ability to defend them. Man, I am getting worn out.
Bush is not going to win American Idol. But the US will continue to underwrite the cost of defending everyone's current notion of "free world". This is on the backs of Americans who pay their taxes, and who have accepted their responsibility to support the lifestyles of the people of so many other countries who expect their protection. Look at Europe...how many are ready on an every-day basis to defend themselves militarily? France? Denmark? Finland? Norway? UK? Spain? Portugal? And so on...many have military forces, but there is little argument that, in confrontation with a major power, they depend on US protection. Look at Canada. Look at Japan (now changing). Look at South Korea. Look at ...well look and look....Mother America is supposed to keep bad things from happening around the world.
Love our servicemen. Really am getting tired of endless canadian put-downs. Wonder how they might respond if they found themselves under the damning microscope of world opinion...like, might that even ever happen.
Really appreciate the posts from Canuck, Billy, Skid, usa, justme, Mako, arse, Randal, podster, Stream, and, reluctantly, Chucky....sorry if I miss anyone else actively involved in this thread (tho' some intentionally).
My country is wonderful. My country makes mistakes, and these are always featured on front pages. I wish my country was perfect. It isn't. But it is the best country the world has ever had. I love Canada...but dammit, just back off. You do not have to deal on the world stage like the US. AND...our imperfect leadership will be changed democratically (hopefully, with improved results).
I guess I am a Flag-flying, and Bush critic here...but American. Helping youse other guys, internationally. Sorry....you folks are so intelligent. But America is good.
(Note to Streamy and A.R.S.E - see...patriotism CAN stand tall and proud without sounding like fascism. Learn from this, although in your case I doubt this is possible)
chum-face stated earlier that he was an anointed one ,,,then something about a zen master and how he can hear one hand clapping.... is that a euphemism for masturbation..... i don't understand
If you see this kind of shit going on are you able to interrupt it and stop it?
I guess rank might come into it, but would the fact these are tankers not Rangers prevent you from jumping in to prevent this kind of stupidity? I'm assuming not...?
Stream, and other pro-democracy readers/posters: Some comment is made about my group's study of this monkey cage. Just read the interplay between some of the regulars and this Ranger and you see why we do what we do.
From prior posts you all have a good idea as to what these ladies feel about the mission of the US military in Iraq, or the general notion about men risking heir lives to save/rescue others. We generally stay out of opinions- stated-as-opinion fights and we're generally willing to cut non-Americans some slack for there are no shared experiences in this regard...save the really arrogant and really stupid, for which we've been twice blessed on Glumbert.
But generally, you can cut the cynicism here with a knife...they can't believe there is any high-mindedness in the world because there is none in the room in which they write, so it only follows there must be sinister forces at work that cause men to do these things. If we can't readily discern them, by God, we will make them up...such as the idiotic drumbeat that we're doing this for Iraqi oil (and still haven't snatched a drop), or for big corporate interests such as Halliburton's insatiable appetite for building mess-halls around the globe. And of course, there's always the Archangel Gabriel (more likely Lucifer, but I digress) who visits one or more of these ladies in the wee hours to fill in any blanks as to what was going on in GW's or Cheney's mind and heart that causes them to do such evil things. Motive is important.
This is why we have sport with these girls, but go back and read FOR TONE, not substance, the comments many made to our Ranger, trying to distinguish the difference between their position on the war and his own. (Ignore the comments altogether of Sister Dial-tone in Toronto as she has adopted the fawning "Moi? Moi?" Eddie Haskell approach to his first real soldier since 2005. I think it's been that long. Not sure of the date.)
What you note, among the platitudes about his service to his country, etc is total condescension, like an A student in Chemistry might talk to a member of the football team...for much of that cynicism is really a hidden jealousy that goes back to the 7th grade in PE (I think you first said that Stream)..they can't understand why any serious-minded person (like themselves) would work hard just to get beat up on a football field or basketball court, or get dirty, or sweat through their clothes, and worse, that other people would pay to go watch them do it and call them heroes for their effort. That was them in 7th Grade, this is them now.
Almost everyone of these girls, while applauding this ranger's service is talking down to him, as if to say he'd really be better off taking $20 raking their Mom's leaves, but seriouls unqualified to do much work above that. Remember the famous Kerry line? It's either Iraq or an all night wrecker service. Leave the heavy thinking to your betters, you do the menial chores. Sorta pisses me off, but as Chumm first mentioned awhile back, they're pissing on the very shoulders they're standing on. When the best and nrightest came to a crossroads, the best went one way, the self-appointed brightest the other. It was that way in Vietnam, it's that way now, it seems. America needs its best far more than it needs its brightest, and will for many years to come. These girls just got the short end of the stick, and history will record it just that way. We'll be doing it.
What's interesting is that the internet allows them to say these things without having to pick themselves up and peel their nose off their ear, which is where I'd put it, and I suspect our Ranger can do more with an ear than I ever dreamed. I was mere Infantry.
You have it all backwards as usual Chumm! We are here to watch you!
We Are to make certain your twisted distorted views do not go unchallenged. We here that post are ideals and views do so Because great men and women sacrificed dearly to make this freedom a reality! That includes you and your backward thinking!!!
We watch you chumm! We keep you in line chumm! Its We here, the many,Who are to make sure people like yourself stay in check! And your hero A-hole in the white house has been checked! and mated! By Who?(people like us) We're the ones who watch you! Yes thats right! People like us. We will always correct your small thinking! We will always take the time to post and let people know how wacked your thinking is! We have always watched out for fanatics like you and we always will!
if it isn't about oil, or corporate profits why do you think we went in there? oil co. revenues as well as halliburtons have skyrocketed. we can't get any out because of the resulting chaos. note: part of bush's milestones for the iraqi government was the passage of an energy bill that would have allowed the privatization of the Tikrit and untapped western oil fields by foreign corporations. strangely enough they think this is a ripoff go figure
to quote chummins posting 'but as Chumm first mentioned awhile back' now have i missed something here, is he referring to himself in a posting or is this a slip stream?
Skids,The "chumm group" Apparently is just that! A group of People who share the same caricature and toothbrush.
Stream denies being part of this and has ever since this issue of cumm referring himself to as a third party appeared a ways back on (faces of fascism) ! After A few months of accusing stream of being a creator of the chum alias,and his constantly rebuking the notion... I have since recanted and taken stream to his word and now treat him as he is his own entity. :) Stream you're an entity!I'll see you on star trak.
Cumm, is most likely a bunch of kids messing around?
But if not, then They're part of some defunct para military group looking for something more then the box of straws and waded paper they use as spit ball weaponry, and or lost and confused children on the internet for recruitment purposes.:(( Or maybe there just a offshoot of the Ku Klux Klan!
I came back for a look and Wow! What an all out battle going on here! Which to me, seems well handled, so I'll just read and watch...but... I want to offer a different angle, one of "sacrifice" and commitment by the "common" solder, who's voice has the MOST meaning....
Not just in today's world, but back when this great country America was formed.
George Washington, while desperately trying to win the revolution, told his demoralized, partially defeated, freezing, shoeless, exhausted troops, "If we do not win, we are already defeated, so we have nothing to risk", rallying his men to cross the Delaware river on to victory. His orders that night were "When we cross tonight, the American password will be, 'Victory or Death'". America exists today because of our countries delivery from tyranny by those brave soldiers!
Sometimes freedom is best viewed from afar, places that don't have the freedoms, or a constitution that guarantees them. Places like the United Kingdom, or Australia, that, for instance , in recent years, have been stripped of the "right" to self defense, a natural human "right"....aka the loss of the right to "bear arms". I have an Aussie and Brit friend, we debate (argue) all the time about this subject, it's then I feel most proud to call myself American...completely confident that such erosion of rights will never happen here!
Can you imagine living in those countries like Cuba, where the government controls the media, you have no right of assembly, no right to voice your opinion publicly, no right to academic debate, you can't even leave the country for a better life, and can't own a gun for protection!
So IMHO, if you're an American and don't like Washington, Sacramento, Albany, Chicago, etc, and you want to piss and moan, complain, armchair quarterback, whatever you want to call it, and you don't get off your ass and "fix it" then, only a soldier who bakes in the heat, eats the sand in Iraq, freezes their ass off in the mountains of Afghanistan, or crosses an icy river and marches through the snow with no shoes....has earned that right!
"Stripped of the right to self defense", ah, what? That makes no sense.
"right to bear arms"? Works well in the USA if you look up the statistics about violent deaths per capita world wide. Unfortunately the wrong people get killed in the process.
"Countries where the government controls the media", hm, yeah, you are correct about this, it is a lot more fun to live in a country where the mass media is controlled by people who suck up to the government. Makes a whole lot of a difference.
LOL, after reading my "rant" again, I admit it was a bit scattered, too many thoughts trying to get out at once!
Now as to your question, "ah, what?" and statement, "That makes no sense." Let me explain for you what "Stripped of the right to self defense" means, what effect it's having..(this is going to be a long comment!)
I'm assuming you are either a Brit or an Aussie, or maybe you're an American that's just ignorant on this subject (I'm not intending to disrespect you here), either way, here are some enlightening facts for you....
UK laws require licensing for all guns, even for a shotgun, and self-defense is not considered a valid reason for obtaining a license.
There have been many arrests in the UK of homeowners defending their property, you basically are not allowed to defend, you must back off! The UK's apparent attitude toward burglary is the real problem, to wit, if nobody gets hurt it's more or less tolerated and that translates to government-mandated pacifism by victims. Aka "Stripped of the right to self defense"
Tolerating crime is tantamount to rewarding it. Any behavioral psychologist will tell you that you get more of the behavior you reward and less of the behavior you punish. Unfortunately, that concept might be a little too advanced for some government's to grasp.
"In France, we threaten him who sounds the alarm and leave him in peace who starts the fire." Nicholas Chamfort
It appears to work that way in the UK, too.
Crime rates in England have skyrocketed since the ban was enacted. According to economist John Lott of the American Enterprise Institute, the violent crime rate has risen 69 percent since 1996, with robbery rising 45 percent and murders rising 54 percent. This is even more alarming when you consider that from 1993 to 1995 armed robberies had fallen by 50 percent. Recent information released by the British Home Office shows that trend is continuing.
In Australia and nearby New Zealand, it's not much different....
In New Zealand, Paul McIntyre, a farmer who shot and wounded a robber, was charged with shooting and injuring (the scum bag) "with reckless disregard for the safety of others" and "discharging a shotgun without reasonable cause".
New Zealand law does not permit citizens to keep a loaded gun accessible for self-defense.
In Australia today, police can enter your house and search for guns, copy the hard drive of your computer, seize records, and do it all without a search warrant. It's the law that police can go door to door searching for weapons that have not been surrendered in their much publicized gun buy back program.
What's the result? Same as in Great Britain, crime "down under" has escalated. Twelve months after the law was implemented in 1997, there had been a 44 percent increase in armed robberies; an 8.6 percent increase in aggravated assaults; and, a 3.2 percent increase in homicides. That same year in the state of Victoria, there was a 300 percent increase in homicides committed with firearms. The following year, robberies increased almost 60 percent in South Australia. By 1999, assaults had increased in New South Wales by almost 20 percent. Again that trend is continuing.
Self and family protection is not considered a valid reason to own a firearm. The right to self-defense, is not recognized in Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand and other countries. Like Americans, Brits, Kiwi's and Roo's loved and possessed firearms --- that is until the ban. Freedom has been extinguished. A way of life has ended. On that, I will agree with you...."That makes no sense".
Since Blair's 1997 total ban on armed self-defense, things have gone from bad to worse. "You are now six times more likely to be mugged in London than New York," Why? Because as common law appreciated, not only does an armed individual have the ability to protect him or herself but criminals are less likely to attack them ... A study found American burglars fear armed homeowners more than the police." The most dangerous burglaries – the kind that occurs when people are at home – are much rarer in the U.S. ... only 13 percent, (mostly in the west coast and the other few remaining anti gun states), in contrast to 53 percent in England.
I hope I've given you some useful info, so you can understand what I was and are still "ranting" about!
OK, I am from Germany, I am not aware of this situation in the UK and Australia. Though to me that looks like they did something wrong.
We do have really strict laws about guns in Germany and we do have a slowly declining crime rate which is not that high to start with (though there are a lot of conservatives around who will tell you otherwise). It is close to impossible to get a license here to carry a gun in public, this is the privilege of police, some well screened security companies (i.e. money transporters) and a few people who are in a high risc category.
Getting a license for sports or hunting requires you to first be a member of a rod and gun or hunting club. Next you have to take a test to show that you know the laws and are technically able to safely handle a gun. If you have a clean criminal record (and no drunk driving on record) you can then apply for a license. I am not familiar with any further requirements for hunters, but for sports guns you then apply for a certain type of gun and you need a signature from the president of your club that you are actually training and competing in the discipline that you apply for (I myself got two small caliber rifles and am thinking about getting a Winchester).
If you leave the club and don't join another you lose the license to buy ammunition for your guns.
The guns must be stored in a locked cabinet (which the police has the right to inspect unannounced, they are not allowed to actually search your home without a warrant, they kindly ask your cooperation which of course you should provide if you don't want them to come back with the warrant), unloaded. They have to be transported unloaded and may be unpacked and loaded only on a shooting range.
If you get caught in a crime you lose the license. If you get caught driving drunk you lose the license. If what you did to lose the license had nothing to do with guns you get the chance to sell them, if you do shit with them you just lose them.
This is the situation we had more or less for decades here. There are about 800-900 people killed per year (about 80M people), roughly 10% of them with fire arms and of those less than 1% with legal fire arms. A fire fight between criminals and police does actually make national headlines for days here.
The USA on the other hand have some 16k dead per year at 300M people with a much higher percentage with fire arms. Even the accidents with firearms claim more lifes per year in the USA than crime does in Germany. Last deadly accident on record here was two years ago.
There is a lot of stuff going on here that sucks (as is in any country), but this is definitely one of the things that is quite good.
Great educational thread re: how other countries handle this issue.
Never owned firearms (but my dad did). Never thought I would need them, and (with 5 kids), never wanted them in the house.
Find it hard to side with pro-arms people...their arguments always seem to be based on personal defense against some intruder, or generally against a national leadership that has turned totalitarian.
I remember a statistic from years ago that showed that the majority of deaths during home break-ins were the result of the owner being shot by his own gun after a struggle with the culprit.
Another put-off was the issue of misuse...i.e., where a kid gets his father's gun and kills someone with it, usually playing or showing off...or stealing it to carry out some perverted plan later seen as, well, crazy. Then too, how often do we read of some drunken gun owner using his weapon to settle an argument at a bar, or to punish his girl friend/wife, or her lover, with deadly results.
I live in the northeast...gun ownership here is not quite as inflammatory an issue as elsewhere, like the south and west, which have much more deeply entrenched hunting traditions, and longer seasons, than up this way.
Like I said, I am slow to support the arming of a non-organized citizenry. Remember that the constitution was framed at a time when foreign threat was significant (just after the revolution), and a standing army (navy, air force, marines, national guard, reserves) did not exist in the way that they do today. So, the "right to bear arms" related directly to the ability to raise a defensive force (militia) on behalf of the country...nowadays covered by the national and state military forces. I no more think it likely that our goverment will suddenly turn totalitarian than I think the UK's will, or Canada's, or Australia's, etc. Hence, the need to arm ourselves to protect ourselves from ourselves has made little sense to me.
And as to protection from others outside ourselves...it is a laughable notion that individuals with a rifle or handgun here and there would have any noticeable affect if our national defense allowed invasion of our soil. Given the size and sophistication of our national defense, basing a guns-to-everyone policy on its failure seems a bit fatalistic, and unrealistic.
One can alway dream up a situation where having a gun saves a family. By and large, such situations are more that just rare...they are almost unheard of. Balanced against the risk of misuse, this argument is less than convincing.
NRA folks will react to this. Hey...differing opinions make for interesting discourse.
chaz, you're right on some points and I disagree on others...
You're right that NRA folks will react to this, I will and I am. Your right about differing opinions making interesting discourse.
But that, my glumbertian friend, is where we part ways!
First, let me say I see the words of someone not fully informed, of the "truth" the actual happenings out there in this great big nation of ours. Are you aware of the millions of defensive gun use's every year in the US? That's right MILLIONS! Every Year! Most of which the gun was never fired. Imagine, millions of crimes stopped, no one murdered, assaulted, raped, robbed, millions of times a year! You don't hear about that in the media! Don't believe me...
There's just a teeny tinny bit of what goes on, what the biased anti gun press doesn't report.
Your out right "poo-pooing" out of hand dismissal, of the second amendment, (intentional or not) needs a little rebuttal as well!
This may be a bitter pill to swallow, but the right to keep and bear arms is not archaic. It's not an outdated, dusty idea some old dead white guys dreamed up in fear of the Redcoats. No, it is just as essential to liberty today as it was in 1776. Your words (intentional or not) undermine the Second Amendment, to deride it and degrade it, to readily accept diluting it and eagerly promote redefining it, threaten not only the physical well-being of millions of Americans but also the core concept of individual liberty our founding fathers struggled to perfect and protect.
The original amendments we refer to as the Bill of Rights contain ten of what the constitutional framers termed unalienable rights. These rights are ranked in random order and are linked by their essential equality. The Bill of Rights came to us with blinders on. It doesn't recognize color, or class, or wealth. It protects not just the rights of doctors, or carpenters, or executives, but extends even to those we love to hate. That's why the most heinous criminals have rights until they are convicted of a crime. The beauty of the Constitution can be found in the way it takes human nature into consideration. We are not a docile species capable of co-existing within a perfect society under everlasting benevolent rule. We are what we are. Egotistical, corruptible, vengeful, sometimes even a bit power mad. The Bill of Rights recognizes this and builds the barricades that need to be in place to protect the individual.
The second amendment, is the one right that protects all the others. Among freedom of speech, of the press, of religion, of assembly, of redress of grievances, it is the first among equals. It alone offers the absolute capacity to live without fear. The right to keep and bear arms is the one right that allows all other "rights" to exist at all. You can believe that, or not, that's for you to decide.
The second amendment is threatened by political theatrics, piecemeal lawmaking, talk show psychology, extreme bad taste and hypocrisy in the entertainment industry, an ever-widening educational chasm in our schools and a conniving, biased media, that all add up to cultural warfare against the idea that guns ever had, or should now have, an honorable and proud place in our society.
It's time people learn that firearm ownership is constitutional, not criminal. In fact, few pursuits can teach a young person more about responsibility, safety, conservation, their history and their heritage, all at once. You give statistical examples on guns...here's one for you...More people are injured playing ping pong every year than hunting!
It is time people realize that the politically correct BS of today has misled them. And that if you do not break our laws, you have the a right to choose to own a gun -- a handgun, a long gun, a small gun, a large gun, a black gun, a purple gun, a pretty gun, an ugly gun -- and to use that gun to defend yourself and or loved ones or to engage in any lawful purpose you desire without apology or explanation to anyone, ever. If you say guns create only carnage, I would say you know better. Declining morals, disintegrating families, flip-flopping, political leadership, an eroding criminal justice system and social mores that blur right and wrong are more to blame -- certainly more than any legally owned firearm.
There can be no free speech, no freedom of the press, no freedom to protest, no freedom to worship your god, no freedom to speak your mind, no freedom to post your opinion on glumbert, no freedom from fear, no freedom for your children and for theirs, for anybody, anywhere, without the Second Amendment freedom to fight for it. If you don't believe me, just turn on the news tonight. Civilization's veneer is wearing thinner all the time!
Bug the 2nd amendment is unequivocal ...we have the right to keep and bear arms just as the 1st and 16th allow congress to levy taxes against all earnings...
Why then was there no more opposition to the Patriot Act? It does invalidate quite a few of your civil rights, like privacy.
They try to do the same here in Germany but face a stiff wind blowing at them from the opposition.
The thing about criminals not obeying the laws is of course a fact, if you don't obey the law you are either a criminal of a politician. According to best guess there are twice as many illegal guns in Germany as there are legal ones. Though that includes quite a few that were inherited and not properly registered. And of course criminals will try to avail themselfs of guns. The more there are around the easier that gets.
bug there was no opposition to the patriot act because congress lacked the courage to bear political criticism, the intelligence to understand it and they were too fucking lazy to read it...
Parliament passes laws that experts tell them are not compliant with the constitution, law goes in effect, people sue against it. law gets ruled down by court, taxpayer lost a lot of money. The parliament was quite outraged when the current German president (not the same function as the US president, the functions are split between chancellor and president) did refuse to sign a couple laws that were clearly against the constitution.
thebug from Germany..lol I understand the name now...
First off, let me say I'm glad to hear you have some sporting rifle's, that lets me know I'm dealing with someone who knows the "fun" end of gun ownership. Not to mention (for personal reasons) I like your thought of getting a "Winchester" rifle. I have a model 94 30-30 lever action, and a Super X 2 12 gauge auto, love em both!
As for the rest.......
Wow you have VERY restrictive gun laws there! No offense to you or your country but that sounds absolutely Orwellian! That endless list of restrictions made the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end!
Things are a little different here in the USA!
In my area, Michigan, to own and possess a shotgun or rifle (long gun) you must be 18 years old and pass the, National Instant Criminal Background Check System or "NICS". (read law abiding citizen) To do that, you fill out a form, hand it to the gun sales person, they call up NICS, they give you the nod, (or, if you're a criminal, they call the police and you go to jail) then you pay the money and that's it! You can have it in your vehicle, as long as it's unloaded, in a case, reasonably out of the reach of the occupants (transport mode) the ammo needs to be in any other separate location. No need to have a destination (hunting, range etc.) no restrictions on ammunition amounts or types, except for when hunting. No required locked safes or cabinets, but common sense should have you locking them up!
Handguns....
You apply for a License to Purchase a Pistol (at the sheriff or police station) prior to obtaining a pistol. The police will check for any criminal record at both the state and national level. You must answer gun related questions on a Basic Pistol Safety Questionnaire, with at least 70% correct, and swear before a notary that they meet the statutory requirements to own a pistol.
A License to Purchase a Pistol is valid for 10 days to purchase a pistol. The seller must sign the license and keep one copy for his/her records. You must return to the local police department within 10 days of purchasing the pistol, return the two remaining copies of the license, and present the pistol for a Safety Inspection Certificate.
Concealed pistol license....
This is where it gets restrictive and for good reason obviously...
Must be at least 21 years of age.
Must either be a citizen of the United States or a resident legal alien.
Must have resided in this state for at least 6 months.
Can never have been convicted of a felony in this state or elsewhere. (Felony is defined as a violation of a law that is punishable by death or imprisonment for more than one year.)
Can not have been convicted of a misdemeanor in this state or elsewhere in the past three years.
Can not have been convicted of the following misdemeanors in the past eight years:
Drunk driving, second offense, MCL 257.625
Reckless driving, MCL 257.626
Driving while license suspended or revoked, MCL 257.904
Hindering or obstructing weights and measures enforcement officer, MCL 290.629
Hindering, obstructing, assaulting, or committing bodily injury upon director or authorized representative per Motor Fuels Quality Act, MCL 290.650
Knowingly or intentionally possessing controlled substance, MCL 333.7403
Displaying sexually explicit materials to minors, MCL 722.677
Assault or domestic assault, MCL 750.81
Aggravated assault or aggravated domestic assault, MCL 750.81A
Fourth degree child abuse, MCL 750.136B
Accosting, enticing, or soliciting a child for immoral purposes, MCL 750.145A
Vulnerable adult abuse, MCL 750.145N
Solicitation to commit a felony, MCL 750.157B
Impersonating sheriff, conservation officer, coroner, constable, or police officer, MCL 750.215
Illegal sale of a firearms or ammunition, MCL 750.223
Illegal sale of a self-defense spray, MCL 750.224D
Sale or possession of a switchblade, MCL 750.226A
Improper transportation of a firearm, MCL 750.227C
Failure to have a pistol safety inspected, MCL 750.228
Accepting a pistol in pawn, MCL 750.229
Failure to register the purchase of a firearm or a firearm component, MCL750.232
Improperly obtaining a pistol, making a false statement on an application to purchase a pistol, or using false identification to purchase a pistol, MCL 750.232A
Intentionally aiming a firearm without malice, MCL 750.233
Intentionally discharging a firearm aimed without malice, MCL 750.234
Possessing a firearms on prohibited premises, MCL 750.234D
Brandishing a firearm in public, MCL 750.234E
Possession of a firearm by an individual less than 18 years of age, MCL 750.234F
Intentionally discharging a firearm aimed without malice causing injury, MCL 750.235
Parent of a minor who possessed a firearm in a weapon free school zone, MCL 750.235A
Setting a spring gun or other device, MCL 750.236
Possessing a firearm while under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a drug, MCL 750.237
Weapon free school zone violation, MCL 750.237A
Stalking, MCL 750.411H
Reckless, careless, or negligent use of a firearm resulting in injury or death, MCL 752.861
Reckless, careless, or negligent use of a firearm resulting in property damage, MCL 752.862
Reckless discharge of a firearm, MCL 752.863A
Any violation of a law of the United States, another state, or a local unit of government of this state or another state substantially corresponding to a violation described in the above.
Can not have been found guilty, but mentally ill, of any crime.
Can not have offered a plea of not guilty, or been acquitted of any crime, by reason of insanity.
Can never have been subject to an order of involuntary commitment in an inpatient or outpatient setting due to mental illness.
Can not have a diagnosed mental illness at the time application is made.
Can not be under a court order of legally incapacity in this state or elsewhere.
Can not have been dishonorably discharged from the U.S. Armed Forces.
Can not be the subject of an order or disposition under any of the following:
Court ordered involuntary hospitalization or alternative treatment, MCL 330.1464A
Order finding a person legally incapacitated, MCL 700.5107
Stalking, personal protection order, or injunctive order, MCL 600.2950
600.2950A
Release of a defendant subject to protective conditions, only if the conditions are imposed, MCL 76506B
Order covering a person found not guilty by reason of insanity, MCL 769.16B
Must have completed the necessary training required under the Act.
Training
The training required under this Act must be a program certified by this state, or a national or state firearms training organization and provides instruction in all of the following:
The safe storage, use, and handling of a pistol.
Ammunition knowledge, and the fundamentals of pistol shooting.
Pistol shooting positions.
Firearms and the law, including civil liability issues.
Avoiding criminal attack and controlling a violent confrontation.
All laws that apply to carrying a concealed pistol in this state.
At least 8 hours of instruction, including 3 hours of firing range time.
All concealed pistol licenses are unrestricted. However, licensees are still prohibited from carrying a pistol at:
A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up a student.
A private or public day care center, child caring agency or child placing agency
A sports arena or stadium
A dining room, lounge or bar area of premises licensed under the Michigan Liquor control Act. Does not apply to the owner or employee of the premises.
Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple or other place of worship unless the presiding officials permit the carrying on the property.
An entertainment facility that the individual know or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more or that has a sign above each public entrance stating that the seating is 2,500 or more.
Hospital
A dorm or classroom of a college or university.
So you need to be "clean as a whistle" to carry a concealed pistol!
I could get into the why of guns, the crime stats, and all, but I've gone on too much as it is!
The crime stats would be the interesting part though. You claim that the abundance of guns make the USA more safe. But the statistics show that it is the industrialized nation with the highest number of murders per capita. And most of these are done with fire arms. Also the USA leads the statistics in deadly accidents with fire arms.
I use by guns for sports, I would not even think of using them for self protection (from what?) and I would not want to see any guns in the hands of people who have not been trained to safely handle them.
The problem with you guys arguing that it is your constitutional right to own a gun is that you fail to recognize when and under what conditions this "right" was formulated. To keep up with todays situation you would need to gear up a little bit to fulfill your role as the last line of defense: Get a couple tanks and anti aircraft guns.
Wake up man, you are no longer in a log cabin with the next Sherrif a weeks ride by horse away.
A very BIG point needs to be made here, guns don't kill people, people kill people, with guns, knives, cars, bombs, bats, ropes, shovels and on and on...I personally own dozens of different types of guns, for some 35 years and never once has one jumped up on its own and gone off, or shot someone!
I must respectfully disagree with your "statistical" references to murder and guns in the US. You want the real stats on murder by country, here they are, current and up to date....
#1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people
#2 South Africa: 0.496008 per 1,000 people
#3 Jamaica: 0.324196 per 1,000 people
#4 Venezuela: 0.316138 per 1,000 people
#5 Russia: 0.201534 per 1,000 people
#6 Mexico: 0.130213 per 1,000 people
#7 Estonia: 0.107277 per 1,000 people
#8 Latvia: 0.10393 per 1,000 people
#9 Lithuania: 0.102863 per 1,000 people
#10 Belarus: 0.0983495 per 1,000 people
#11 Ukraine: 0.094006 per 1,000 people
#12 Papua New Guinea: 0.0838593 per 1,000 people
#13 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0802565 per 1,000 people
#14 Thailand: 0.0800798 per 1,000 people
#15 Moldova: 0.0781145 per 1,000 people
#16 Zimbabwe: 0.0749938 per 1,000 people
#17 Seychelles: 0.0739025 per 1,000 people
#18 Zambia: 0.070769 per 1,000 people
#19 Costa Rica: 0.061006 per 1,000 people
#20 Poland: 0.0562789 per 1,000 people
#21 Georgia: 0.0511011 per 1,000 people
#22 Uruguay: 0.045082 per 1,000 people
#23 Bulgaria: 0.0445638 per 1,000 people
#24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
#25 Armenia: 0.0425746 per 1,000 people
#26 India: 0.0344083 per 1,000 people
#27 Yemen: 0.0336276 per 1,000 people
#28 Dominica: 0.0289733 per 1,000 people
#29 Azerbaijan: 0.0285642 per 1,000 people
#30 Finland: 0.0283362 per 1,000 people
#31 Slovakia: 0.0263303 per 1,000 people
#32 Romania: 0.0250784 per 1,000 people
#33 Portugal: 0.0233769 per 1,000 people
#34 Malaysia: 0.0230034 per 1,000 people
#35 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0229829 per 1,000 people
#36 Mauritius: 0.021121 per 1,000 people
#37 Hungary: 0.0204857 per 1,000 people
#38 Korea, South: 0.0196336 per 1,000 people
#39 Slovenia: 0.0179015 per 1,000 people
#40 France: 0.0173272 per 1,000 people
#41 Czech Republic: 0.0169905 per 1,000 people
#42 Iceland: 0.0168499 per 1,000 people
#43 Australia: 0.0150324 per 1,000 people
#44 Canada: 0.0149063 per 1,000 people
#45 Chile: 0.014705 per 1,000 people
#46 United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
#47 Italy: 0.0128393 per 1,000 people
#48 Spain: 0.0122456 per 1,000 people
#49 Germany: 0.0116461 per 1,000 people
#50 Tunisia: 0.0112159 per 1,000 people
#51 Netherlands: 0.0111538 per 1,000 people
#52 New Zealand: 0.0111524 per 1,000 people
#53 Denmark: 0.0106775 per 1,000 people
#54 Norway: 0.0106684 per 1,000 people
#55 Ireland: 0.00946215 per 1,000 people
#56 Switzerland: 0.00921351 per 1,000 people
#57 Indonesia: 0.00910842 per 1,000 people
#58 Greece: 0.0075928 per 1,000 people
#59 Hong Kong: 0.00550804 per 1,000 people
#60 Japan: 0.00499933 per 1,000 people
#61 Saudi Arabia: 0.00397456 per 1,000 people
You say you use guns for sport, awesome! But you say "I would not even think of using them for self protection (from what?)" The above "stats" show you are at as much risk to being murdered (by guns alone) than half the industrialized world!
The most recent statistics show 109,277 U.S. residents died in accidents of all types in 2005. Less than 1 percent involved firearms. Even when the estimated number of citizen-owned firearms in the United States, has risen to more than 290 million.
Another point to make, Many countries, such as Switzerland, New Zealand, Finland, and Israel have high gun-ownership rates and low crime rates, while other countries have low gun ownership rates and either low or high crime rates. It is difficult to obtain comparable data on crime rates both over time and across countries, and to control for all the other differences across the legal systems and cultures across countries. Even the cross country polling data on gun ownership is difficult to assess, because ownership is underreported in countries where gun ownership is illegal and the same polls are never used across countries.
Now for the biggie..You say, "The problem with you guys arguing that it is your constitutional right to own a gun is that you fail to recognize when and under what conditions this "right" was formulated."
Let me tell you first off, there is absolutely no failure to recognize the conditions under which this "right" was formulated! Quite the contrary, the second amendments not archaic. It's not outdated, it is just as essential to liberty today as it was in 1776. The second amendment, is the one right that protects all the others. Among freedom of speech, of the press, of religion, of assembly, of redress of grievances, it is the first among equals. It alone offers the absolute capacity to live without fear. The right to keep and bear arms is the one right that allows all other "rights" to exist at all!
As for your last "dig" you don't need to live in a log cabin to put you out of reach of the law, in this country the "law" has no duty to protect you, (can you imagine the lawsuits) the law duty is to stop or pervent crime, even though they try very hard to help you, the cold stark reality is, most crime (including deadly) events are complete within 2 minutes! This country is big, VERY BIG and for the police to get to you, to stop a crime in progress, is almost completely impossible!
I have personally used (not discharged) a pistol one time, to stop a break in, at 2:00 AM in my home, at the time I lived 1/4 mile from a police "mini-station" it took them 10 minutes to get there! AT the time I was protecting not only myself and property but my wife and two infant children. I absolutely freak out at the thought of not being armed that day! This person new I was home, what was their intent? Thankfully my "insurance" policy was with Smith
Yes, you are right, people are the problem not guns. But guns in too many hands make it more likely that they get into the wrong hands.
You are also right that many guns are not the prime cause of crime problems, there are a lot of other factors too.
But if you look at your ranking list for murders I have to say that I feel a lot better with the countries that group around Germanies position on the list than those that group around the USA. Especially when you take into account that the Baltic states and Poland are now part of the EU and get a lot of support to improve their situation.
Compared to most of the civilized world we are. I'm not a NRA member, no offense miter, but they are a little over the top for me.
Gun ownership is very intertwined with American culture, and patriotism. I have no problem with people owning and using guns, as long as they are trained to use those tools. Actually more Americans are killed by automobiles than by guns. It is simply a matter of statistics, and any country that had as many guns as America would have the same or worse numbers of accidental deaths. Actually statistically more people die in their bathrooms, than from gun violence.
I own a gun, (well I call it a gun), (and the law calls it a gun), but its just a 22 rifle I had as a kid. I keep it for home protection, and plinking. It is absolutely the wrong weapon for home protection, even with LR HP rounds. But in this state I registered my "legacy" weapon, and the restrictions are similar to miters state, and maybe a little stricter for the handguns.
I grew up in Vermont, and guns are not really a problem for anyone, and people do kill each other with them, but the culture of that state is that owning a gun is like owning a shovel, (and people kill each other with those too). It is a matter of social psychology I think. When I moved into the more urban area where I am now, my friends and co-workers were shocked that I own a gun, and strangely said when I told them it was a 22, that it was not capable of killing a person! That is the level of ignorance in this 'area' of this state, however other parts of this state are quite like Vermont in attitudes, and usage.
As for being shot by my own weapon, yep statistically it is true that i may be killed by my own gun, but statistically I am more likely to be killed in my own car as well. Statistics are only useful is used correctly. So I will keep my gun, (until I get a better one), and I will take that risk, (not as bad as driving to work).
So to sum it all up (IMHO), as one gets closer to a city, the ignorance of guns goes up in proportion to the level of gun violence experienced by it's citizens. I noticed that the same is true for racism as well, at least in this area.
I close with the state motto of New Hampshire: Live Free or Die!
Killing yes, self defence no. A 22 can not stop someone charging you. Even air rifles can kill, the first air rifle to ever be produced in any large volume was a machine gun for the Prussian army.
My weapon of choice is the competition crossbow for 10m and 30m distance.
oh and by the way when gulianni was mayor of new york it became illegal to defend your home with a firearm, you were suppose to leave if someone broke in ,,,,yes miter there is a definite correlation between stupidity and major cities
That sucks for sure. If these guys had no guns they would still club each other. Living in such a neighbourhood definitely is a mistake where a gun would not help you, maybe a tank...
This was all very interesting and educational for me. I've never needed a gun, and hope I never do. I have nothing against a person owning one though, for protection, or sporting purposes. My Dad used to hunt when I was growing up, and taught my brothers the importance of gun safety.
Pod, I do see what you're saying about the 22, it isn't the most powerful of weapons (even I know that), but, I would have to say that ANY gun would make a criminal pause in his tracks. If they realize it's "only" a 22, they might have time to sort out that they may survive the blast, but you can be sure, they'll certainly know it ain't gonna feel good! A 22 might not kill a raging burglar outright, but it would damn sure slow him down a little, and that might be just enough.
I don't remember where I heard this, or who said it, but someone stated once, "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will own guns". To me, that's pretty scary.
Excuse me, I'm heading for the gun shop.
The bad variant of that equation is the situation where the criminal is armed too. Who would you think is going to be faster to shoot and possibly kill another human being? You or the criminal?
ftb - Well when the caliber is low, one must make up the difference in accuracy. I can shoot a fly of the ear of a running horse if I had to, and without using the sights. But you're right it will slow em down quite a bit.
Thankfully my "insurance" policy was with Smith and Wesson and Cor-Bon that day! Nuff said!
You most probably can't grasp the rah rah for freedom that I try (maybe not to well) to explain here. It may be uniquely an American ideology. So I guess we could just go back and forth, with both of us correct in our statements. I have great respect for German people and their way's. It is a good way for you over there.
For me to further bang this drum, would be a waste of time for us both. Not to mention we both seem to be strong in our convictions and aren't going to budge on the issue!
Glücklicher Freund, kann seien Sie Frieden und Glück, mit Ihnen sein!
guns can be a good or bad thing. I killed my dog afew years ago because it bit my girl on the foot. GOOD.
i shot myself in the foot when i was cleaning my gun - BAD.
morons.
The irony of it all.....here in the US, in a time duration less than the length of this string, there have been TWO separate gun "mass" killings, ironically both happened in "gun free zones", tragic.
thebug, you certainly have a point there, about the criminal being armed too. Most of them are, I'm sure. The criminal is going to already be willing to use his gun, whereas an honest citizen might pause, and that hesitation would be their undoing.
I do still think the odds would be better if the honest citizen has a small chance of protecting themselves, even with a low caliber firearm. Even criminals ready to shoot may duck and hide for a second if they see a gun pointing at them too. Of course, it could also make the criminal shoot, when they had no intention of using the gun in the first place. I do see your point. It's a tough issue, and everyone has to do what feels right to them I guess.
It's been said that the average criminal will flee at the sound of a shotgun being pumped, (I know I would), so maybe there is a market for selling the sound without the gun.
Burglar's been casing the joint for a couple of weeks and notices a family outside their lovely home are packing for what appears to be a long weekend away.
He waits to ensure they have left and then later that evening returns with malice aforethought, intent on breaking and entering to his heart's content
He climbs around to the rear of the property, noting happily to himself there are no security lights or alarm visible. Taping up the rear kitchen window he applies pressure until it cracks quietly... He makes his entry, the adrenaline coursing through his body as he anticipates the great haul of swag he is likely to get away with, safe in the knowledge that the family are away...
As he makes his way through the property he gets into the living room and spying the flat screen TV makes his way towards it. Then, suddenly he hears a voice, "Jesus is watching you..."
He freezes in shock, "what the f...?" shining his torch around wildly, desperately looking for a way out.
'Who's there?" he whispers. The same voice again..."Jesus is watching you..."
Our burglar friend is a little freaked out now... he pans his torch around the room and through the door into the hallway he sees a parrot in a cage. As his torch hits the parrot in the eyes he hears it say the same phrase, "Jesus is watching you"
His relief is palpable. He sidles up the parrot, "who's a pretty boy then?" he asks the bird.
The bird fixes the burglar with a slightly disconcerting stare, "Jesus is STILL watching you.." he says.
The burglar knows now he can have some fun. Thinking the bird is simply repeating a phrase taught to it by its family he asks, "What's your name polly?"
The parrot pauses for a second before answering, "Moses"
"Moses!" exlaims the burglar, "What sort of idiot names their parrot Moses?"
90% of ALL guns in the US are used for hunting and sport, that's right most!
You take away all guns and what have you got, "the strongest will survive", not the meek will inherit the earth!
You don't need a gun for carnage, most, that's MOST, death and destruction is not caused from the business end of a gun.
You have been watching too much TV! Both the news and Hollywood! (fake)
One story of, you don't need guns to kill lot of innocents, one you most probably never heard, of of a twisted man that had many guns, what did he do?
The Bath School disaster is the name given to three bombings in Bath Township, Michigan, USA, on May 18, 1927, which killed 45 people and injured 58. Most of the victims were children in the second to sixth grades (7-12 years of age) attending the Bath Consolidated School. Their deaths constitute the deadliest act of mass murder in a school in U.S. history. The perpetrator was school board member Andrew Kehoe, who was upset by a property tax that had been levied to fund the construction of the school building. He blamed the additional tax for financial hardships which led to foreclosure proceedings against his farm. These events apparently provoked Kehoe to plan his attack.
On the morning of May 18, Kehoe first killed his wife and then set his farm buildings on fire. As fire fighters arrived at the farm, an explosion devastated the north wing of the school building, killing many of the people inside. Kehoe used a detonator to ignite dynamite and hundreds of pounds of pyrotol which he had secretly planted inside the school over the course of many months. As rescuers started gathering at the school, Kehoe drove up, stopped, and detonated a bomb inside his shrapnel-filled vehicle, killing himself and the school superintendent, and killing and injuring several others. During the rescue efforts, searchers discovered an additional 500 pounds (230 kg) of unexploded dynamite and pyrotol planted throughout the basement of the school's south wing.
Let me tell you that getting and or making explosives is easy, VERY easy, and there are many types!
If all guns were gone, say even criminals didn't have them, crime would still be happening, then what? Personally I would be OK, (lots of training in self defense) but what if I were old and frail? What about you, or your wife, mother, kids, etc, etc?
A gun is the great equalizer! No matter your size, or strength, it evens the playing field with respect to self survival.
I advocate training, intensive training, for all gun owners! Just like driving a car, the very biggest killer in the world by far.
As you sarcastically mention the recent killings at a mall and school (you left out the two church's) you didn't mention the fact that a (female) security guard stopped the killer (saving over 100 lives) in his tracks!
Yep the great equalizer saves yet again, like it does MILLIONS of time every year, far, far more lives saved than taken!
miter, it is a fact that sociopaths will find a way to kill people even if there were no guns. I also agree with you that it is quite easy to make or get explosives, basically any household has enough stuff around for a few pounds of explosives, a farm or workshop even more.
But the thing about the security guard stopping the killer shows another facet of the thing: This was a security guard, not everage Joe who happened to carry a gun.
And being old and frail but having a gun willl possibly not protect you, it will make you a target for some asshole who wants a gun.
I still think that gun possession as uncontrolled and widespread as in the USA is not a good idea.
But you know where I am headed. Not against gun ownership...but against gun ownership the way it exists today. I mean, really testing qualifiers, and not the weak, inconsistent regs state to state.
OK, now some of you have to bring up Micheal Moore and "Bowling for Columbine".
I'm glad because this is the type of BS that gets the hype, which is viewed by the masses as "the truth".
First, it was not a documentary, but fiction. Even though he won an Oscar, which went against their own definition! Rule 12 for the Academy awards states that "A documentary must be non- fiction" so even his Oscar is a farce!
An excerpt from a consortium of experts reviewing the "facts" of this pathetic attempt at a "documentary".....
"Bowling is fiction. It makes its points by deceiving and by misleading the viewer. Statements are made which are false. Moore leads the reader to draw inferences which he must have known were wrong. Indeed, even speeches shown on screen are heavily edited, so that sentences are assembled in the speaker's voice, but which were not sentences he uttered. Bowling uses deception as its primary tool of persuasion and effect. The point is not that Bowling is biased, it's that Bowling is consistently, seriously full of deception!"
chaz and bug, the fact you mention and the comments you make about "Bowling for Columbine" seriously undermines the competence and validity of your remarks on this subject! At least I have a clearer understanding of why you arrive at the notions you do regarding this whole gun issue. Again no disrespect here, only my observations!
Michael Moore uses his movies to express an opinion, not very uncommon. But he says they are documentaries, which is a description they don't quite fit, this is quite uncool.
Though that does not mean that his opinion is necessarily wrong, he just uses the wrong way to transport it.
But however edited and set up, I liked that interview with Heston, especially when he started to argue that other countries have a less violent past than the USA, which included countries like Germany and Japan...
In any case, gun ownership is not the primary problem behind the high rate of murder in the USA. There are a lot of social problems that generate a large group of people who have nothing and who have no values, at least none that count as civilized. Please lets not get into that topic as well, the same basic type of problems is present in many industrialized countries and the governments all over the world are equally incompetent in solving anything.
A very,very small compilation of American lyrics from new and old songs pertaining to above subject. So some of you may see how ingrained our guns have become in our society. Or just me perhaps?
:Well have u missed my brother man? he took a little money with a gun in his hand Know the kids are hungry
AF, and also all you other dumb,scared ass Candian border jumpers. FUCK YOU!!It is the Anerican soldier that has kept your sorry ass face feeling and sleeping comfortable on your cum filled pillow at night. In twenty years of serving you and this great country , I have been to 14 countries and 253 cities. I hope you are not American, I would hate to think I placed my life on the line for a low scum bag like you. Fuck You, and your mother. She wasn't a good fuck any way.
Funny how that seems to work out. You see, from what I recount, you guys INVADED us in 1812 and we kicked your sorry asses. What's that, you placed your lives on the line for us? More like for our land and resources.
Eh, I know a few marines who live around me and I don't think you should add them all to these guys. They do protect you, so don't go bashin' them in for this. It's not like the Iraqis are going to listen to us when we're nice... we've tried that already.
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