mako, i would appreciate it if you would make some useful comments. if you believe evolution, try to defend it with some sort of data. don't blindly believe it because your college professor is telling you its true. that is indoctrination not knowledge.
I even referenced the threads where all your supposedly 'brillant' supporting arguments for creationism have been tried, tested and debunked. With data. Lots of it.
It's been used to thoroughly torpedo the ark you live on (used that phrase before and will use it again now)
Genesis is a very poetic book of the Bible...infact a lot of Christians believe the word "day" is rough translation that merely means a "period of time"...which could be 24hrs or 1000 years...
The sunrise and sunset of these "days" merely symbolize the end of a "period"...
In this concept...
Sea Creatures and Birds are created on the Fifth day...
Land animals and Man are created on the Sixth day...
And each day could very well symbolize 1000 years or 10,000 years
It's completely within the word of the Bible for the Earth to be more than 10,000 years old...
Besides, there are as many holes in Evolution Theory as there are in Creationist Theory...
Carbon Dating is the most reliable way of pre-dating archaeological finds, however it can only meassure back 40,000 years...
Other methods are used, but become inaccurate when there are differences throughout the item being dated.
In the end, Evolution IS a religion, if it even was real, there is no way you could prove it...in the 10,000 years or so that people ahve been wandering the earth there is no way we could have measured any difference in the evolutionary process...
Albert Einstein studied the universe for years and came to the realization that there was no way the universe could be this complex without a creator.
"I am convinced that He (God) does not play dice." - Albert Einstein
Just to refine the quote a bit, what Einstein did really write was "Jedenfalls bin ich überzeugt, daß der Alte nicht würfelt." Since it was in a letter to a German scientist. The exact translation of this would be "In conclusion I am convinced the old one does not throw dice".
Einstein was probably not an atheist, but definitely areligious. And he was never christian but jewish.
Id like to punch these guys right in the face could u imagine teaching kids this crap.Dinosaurs are artwork???????????????????????Fairy Tales???????? Alright i gotta stop peace out!
Pure luck Herr Planettint.
By ze vay, I haf now moved back to Argentina, so I expect I vill haf more time to devote to mein beloved Glumbert vonce again.
http://www.adolfvanker.com
Is zis ein comedy show? Like ze famous Onion?
If not, I haf to congratulate zese men for ze greatest propaganda machine since ze fiendish Goebbels!
Surely people do not truly believe zis? I am very old, und easily confused, but even I do not - how do you say - buy zis bullshit.
Your blog voz ein masterpiece, ver much zee mutts nuts as zey say... I vish you vud continue but understand your age und love for zee pampas und armadillos may hamper your enjoyent of chugwater!
God's done made me in my perfik form. Ain't no evomalution an I ain't be no ape-man. Dees guys got it rite. I's worship a 2000 yeer old jewish barber. Jezus be my co-pilot.
I read da Bible an "Christ" be my favorite philosofer "because he changed my life". Da Eart be only 6000 year old an dem dinosars drownded in Noah flood. U folks be kooky if U belief in sience.
[Stepping out of character] Is no one going to pick up on my President Bush quote? He said the quoted remarks before he was elected President for the first time. This speaks volumes about the "values" of the American public. Faith, to them, matters more than anything else - even proven scientific theories.
Pimp - apols for not picking up on the quote but let's face it, most of what that fuckwit says is pure unadulterated stupidity.
His dada's money saved him. Not God.
To be honest the whole US faith issue and it's growth over science could become a huge problem if the US masses become the brainwashed christian equivalent of the Taliban. Personally I think it already is.
The arguments seen offline in terms of the people wanting to teach this bullshit in science lessons as well as online suggest it.
Now get back ta pimpin' dem bitches man - ya gats to get da money mon!
Think that was just one of many, many faux pas GWB has uttered:
'If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator' Washington D.C Dec. 19, 2000
"Dick Cheney and I do not want this nation to be in a recession. We want anybody who can find work to be able to find work" 60 minutes II CBS December 5, 2000
Possibly one of the alternative versions of the original quoted above;
"They misunderestimated me" Bentonville Ark Nov 6 2000
"America better beware of a candidate who is willing to stretch reality in order to win points" aboard his campaign plane Sept 18 2000
'It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it" Reuters May 5 2000
The more recent personal favourite of mine is:
"I fully understand those who say you can't win this thing militarily. That's exactly what the United States military says, that you can't win this military"
That would be on the need for political progress in Iraq, Washington D.C, Oct. 17, 2007
This video sickens me ! There are so many things wrong with this creationist drivel that I'm not sure where to start. The worst is to hear the kids near the end spouting back the garbage about creationism.
How did these guys get to lead a tour in a museum ?
I'm sure the guys leading the tour have some cult angle , because no adult with two brain cells could believe the creationism argument. It was proven in a court that creationism (intelligent design) is not valid material to teach in public classrooms. I feel bad for the kids, they don't know they are learning a bunch of nonsense.
Oh yeah, if you can't explain it. Just ignore it. Basically, they're saying if you can't see it, it doesn't exist unless it's the bible. Jesus had nothing to do with it. I can't blame the kids for regurgitating the narrow mind onset of these "brainwashers." I blame the parents for not allowing the child to take what path they choose, given all options available, and then make an EDUCATED assessment of evolution. It's sad, but that's the kind of actions that people are taking in the middle east.
"If you can't explain it, just ignore it." Isn't that exactly what the evolution religion does?
"blame the parents for not allowing the child to take what path they choose, given all options" as long as they choose the evolution religion in the end?
Couched in the scientific method Evolutionary theory has it in spades
Creationism has a book of instructions that mean you have all the answers upfront, to be aknowledged as truth without critical thought
America - and I'm fair to place this plea at your door only for no other western 'civilized' nation is pushing this crap on their children - wake the fuck up!
nefarious.... what I was saying is this: Anyone can choose what they want, but be exposed to all possibilities before choosing what you believe to be correct. period.
Hm, if early Christians and Dinos did actually exist at the same time then the Dinos likely died out because they could not stand the stupidity any more.
Nefarious - evolution is not religion. Never has been, never will be.
Evolution merely describes part of nature. The fact that that part of nature is important to many people does not make evolution a religion.
Look how they compare and you see where you're little barb is pointless
Religions explain ultimate reality. Evolution stops with the development of life, in fact it doesn't include the origins of life. Your little book has all the answers laid out for you so you don't have to think, enquire or question.
Just donate.
Religions describe the place and role of humans within ultimate reality. Evolution describes only our biological background relative to present and recent human environments.
Religions almost always include reverence for and/or belief in a supernatural power or powers, like the tooth fairy, father Christmas, or a guy in white with a long beard living in the clouds. Evolution does not.
Religions have a social structure built around their beliefs. Although science as a whole has a social structure, no such structure is particular to evolutionary biologists. Plus one doesn't have to participate in that structure to be a scientist
Religions impose moral prescriptions on their members, much like these fuckwits at the museum are doing to young impressionable minds. Evolution does not.
Religions include rituals and sacraments, spankings and choirboy sodomy. With the exception of college graduation ceremonies there is nothing comparable in evolutionary studies.
Religious ideas are highly static - they change primarily by splitting off new religions. Ideas in evolutionary biology change rapidly as new evidence is found. People who fundamentally believe in God find this threatening as it undermines the rational validity of their belief. It shows just how archaic their views actually are
By the way, how can a religion not have any adherents? When asked their religion most people who believe in evolution will call themselves members of mainstream religions like Christianity or Buddhism etc
None identify their religion as evolution. I am a Jedi by the way. Backbone knows this.
If evolution is a religion, it is the only religion that is rejected by all its members.
I'll concede that evolution may be considered a religion under the metaphorical definition of something pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. But as this could also apply to stamp collecting, watering plants or fucking choirboys, calling evolution a religion makes religion itself effectively meaningless.
I think more realistically though, in today's world it is simply that most evolutionary scientists are bored with the witless rantings of creationism. Attempting to shout something into existence as a valid alternative to evolutionary theory does not make it a viable alternative without true science to back it up. Creationism has none.
Using evolution to study the origins of religious attitudes does not make evolution a religion any more than using archaeology to study the origins of biblical texts makes archaeology a religion.
Evolution as religion has also been rejected by the courts.
This means we CAN and WILL take the piss out of young earth creationism
podman, you're right. you're not a biblical scholar. If you read the bible you'd understand that JESUS is in the New Testament.
But since you guys are all a cesspool of rants and disbelief, you'll flame me because that's your only type of response. So flame ahead. I'm not going to preach at you. If you want to believe that that's no Hell, you better pray that you're right.
If you wanna believe you'll otherwise be damned for eternity in a firery hell if you dont follow suite go ahead. I'd rather use my eyes life has given me and see that these fools are only brainwashing these kids. They talk about facts like they are there own. When will overly religous people see that it's all about contriolling the masses. because really without the religions (a way of living) most would be lost because there afraid to process that death is real! Dust to dust.........................The light religion bring into people's lives could be brought in the same way by living to serve other people with good deeds and expecting nothing in return but smiles. not some way to earn a Gods good will and promise of everlasting life. I wouldn't normally rant like this about my own reality because I like to think it is for me only. Although with type's like these guys in the world people like myself need to keep other ideas going. WE NEED TO BE GOOD TO EACH OTHER NO MATTER WHAT PROMISES ARE GIVEN TO US!!!!!!!!
Why can't we just believe in what Jesus preached regarding being decent to one another and that he was just an extraordinary person that changed the reality of how we should treat one another. Why do people NEED to believe life goes on? I believe it's inate! Not enforced by a ruler of sorts just a charateristic you get by being alive and not wanting it to end. Maybe it's all about hearing a good story with a happy ending............I like those too!
As I think about it I understand were all trying to make sense of this place we were born into. I just get bothered the same when someone religous tries to disavow science as if it's a made up. Science was taught to all of us with a formal education. It gave us tools to evaluate and understand the make-up of things. but the differance is we can all apply it not like the bible where you have to take it's word for it. I can take sciences word because I myself can apply it over and over and somehow it's not far fetched. Religions I understand do the same. They help those who believe make sense of there world.................
Mickey Mouse tells a different story and that is written too. Why dont you follow the holy mouse?
The bible is nothing but an old book that has been tinkered with over the centuries so it does not even has value as a historical document any more unless you use a lot of secondary sources.
Ok... so Jesus created everything.... *cough* and they date the fossil by the layer. How in accurate. Must be guaranteeing that no earth movement ever happened... what about carbon dating? If you know what carbon dating is, it's pretty well scientifically documented to be very accurate in the scale of macro evolution.
Carbon dating can only measure dates up to about 60,000 years, yet they use the technique to tell us that dinosaurs are *millions* of years old -- tell me how that works.
Freeme - You are right about Carbon being accurate to within approx 50k years. Do go check on other methods of radiometric dating though. These other methods exist because of the limitations of carbon dating.
Radiometric dates are consistent with several nonradiometric dating methods. For example:
The Hawaiian archipelago was formed by the Pacific ocean plate moving over a hot spot at a slow but observable rate. Radiometric dates of the islands are consistent with the order and rate of their being positioned over the hot spot
Radiometric dating is consistent with Milankovitch cycles, which depend only on astronomical factors such as precession of the earth's tilt and orbital eccentricity
Radiometric dating is consistent with the luminescence dating method
Radiometric dating gives results consistent with relative dating methods such as 'deeper is older'
The creationist claim that radiometric dates are inconsistent rest on a relatively few examples. Any tool can give false readings if used incorrectly.
Creationists ignore the vast majority of radiometric dates showing consistent results.
They have also been shown to be consistently accurate
These guys aren't preaching what the Bible says, they're preaching their interpretation of the Bible. Big difference. The Bible didn't say dinosaurs existed the same time as man. It did say there were "great beasts" in Genesis and it references the Behemoth and Leviathan several places in the Old Testament (Job for one). But the creation story itself is only a few pages long. I'm a practicing Christian and a subscriber of evolution because I think the two can be reconciled if you loosen up what you think is the correct way of interpreting the Bible. Maybe God MADE fossils. Maybe God made the world in a mature state, (just like he made man in a mature state). Surely, even the dumbest Christians can see how the Colorado river cuts through the Grand Canyon and say "hmm, that must've taken a long time." If you consider God being outside of time, and being capable of using time as a tool for creation than the Bible doesn't seem so farfetched. The Bible says we should have faith, not blind-faith and certainly not ignorance.
Faith has nothing to do with science. Evolution is a scientific concept and it is based on observable facts.
The fact that there are people too stupid understand or too much anchored in stupid beliefs does not mean there is anything wrong with the evolution theory.
Good call Podman! It's actually mind blowing to think people relate science and religion together. You can try to prove a religion based on scientific facts, but you can't can't can't prove any level of science by religion. Simple (I thought... *choke*) concept.
This makes me laugh (but not in a good way) There is a fantastic display on right now at the ROM (Royal Ontario Museum), all about Darwin, displaying his works, photographs, journals etc. documenting the theory of evolution. Somehow I rather doubt they'll ever have a "God made all this stuff" display. Kinda hard to get people to pay for tickets to see nothing.
But it would be gently and I would ensure I only used fossil bones accurately carbon dated to ensure they learnt something.
The parents I would simply send to Helmand province or downtown Tikrit with a big stars and stripes on their backs and see how much their God loves and protects them there. They'll experience first hand what following a creationist ideal eventually brings. Dark ages.
If all that you know is written, you know nothing in relation to what is. Mankind, so proud as to think any one is right and willing to kill those "wrong". I love these petty arguments any time spiritual matters are addressed; a circus of idiots for the gods to laugh at. I fart in your general direction, combatants.
There cannot be any other gods in the pantheon - the bible requires that you immediately stone to death anyone, including your own child, for talking about any other god. But these creationist assholes tend to ignore the parts of the bible that are just seen by almost everyone as metaphor or pure lunacy and yet expect us to take certain portions of this insane book literally. And then have the nerve to tell me that I am basing my decision on "faith" in evolution.
"the bible requires that you immediately stone to death anyone, including your own child, for talking about any other god. But these creationist assholes tend to ignore the parts of the bible that are just seen by almost everyone as metaphor or pure lunacy"
Umm, please inform me of which parts of the new testament you speak of. I can't seem to find this anywhere. Oh, they were lies? Well that makes since.
Nefariousprior - as mentioned above, I am not sure what difference it makes if the silly quotes with the angry vengeful god come only from the Old Testament - Am I wrong or is the Book of Genesis kinda part of the old Testament too?. But since you asked, look at Deuteronomy
Chapter 13, verses :7-11. "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
13:7 [Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth;
13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. "
Yeah, that is right fucknuts, I was not lying or making up such a ridiculous claim - your Bible actually says this kind of nonsense. Your child talks about other gods, kill her. But I am glad the bible it is still a warm and comforting source of moral guidance for you. Or at least those portions that you Christians have not cast off as being clearly archaic or out of date. I thought this whole book was the holy word of god, so I am not sure how you Christians pick and choose which parts are gospel truth, and which are clearly primitive nonsense to be disregarded. I guess that is why you have to keep going to church all the time - keep up on those studies!
Look it up in your own bible if you doubt me. Funny, me an atheist, but I still probably have three bibles kicking around the house - kind of hard to avoid in North America. Unfortunately.
If all that you is known is written, then you know nothing. Yep, that's what I said, but meant that if you understood and memorized everything written by man explaining the meaning of his existence, including all concepts of God, then in relation to creation, you still know nothing. I haven't read all the posts here, but I assure you, as clever as I think I am at times, or times I think ya'll are clever, none of us has had an original thought.
Colosians 1:15-17 And He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities%u2014all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
There cannot be any other gods in the pantheon - the bible requires that you immediately stone to death anyone, including your own child, for talking about any other god. But these creationist assholes tend to ignore the parts of the bible that are just seen by almost everyone as metaphor or pure lunacy and yet expect us to take certain portions of this insane book literally. And then have the nerve to tell me that I am basing my decision on "faith" in evolution
"the bible requires that you immediately stone to death anyone, including your own child, for talking about any other god. But these creationist assholes tend to ignore the parts of the bible that are just seen by almost everyone as metaphor or pure lunacy"
Umm, please inform me of which parts of the new testament you speak of. I can't seem to find this anywhere. Oh, they were lies? Well that makes since.
My question was about where in GENESIS, is "Jesus is the designer and creator of everything made". This information being taught in the video to the children, not Colossians.
Did you mean: Genesis 1:15-17 (King James Version)?
15 - And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 - And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 - And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth
Nope, no Jesus in there.
Could it be that the man in the video has never read the bible? Could he be wrong in teaching "Jesus is the designer and creator of everything made"?
It is very easy to project the odds of chance happenings when you can assign unfathomable numbers of years into the equation. Even if man were the accident he is supposed to be, the developement of a perfect counter-part, (Eve) is beyond calculation. Their evolution, occuring at the same exact time, from the primordal ouze, again becomes impossible when the billions of years ARE factored in.
Even I no Eve came from Adams what was it fourteenth rib so expecting them both to evolve from the same primordial ooze is a bit much.
Hang on if Eve came from Adams rib wouldn't they be very closely related like siblings (clones) and then they had children who we all descended from so in that case we are all in-breds.
Thats against the teachings of all major religions. So unless we don't take all of the bible literally we should be OK.
On the other hand if we do take the bible literally well..............
I have to make a serious comment no one has claimed that Adam and Eve came from the same primordial pond but simple life forms did and that they eventually evolved into other life forms which in turned evolved into others.
Note they could not have evolved separately no one has claimed that so stop trying to push a bullshit point.
Mountain Man what are you saying? That it's impossible that a female of the species would not evolve alongside a male
What, you mean like the males and females of other non human species?
Or those species evolved to reproduce assexually
Or those species that reproduce sexually but which have evolved to change sex if the numbers of males or females of the species become overly large and the system needs to balance itself?
You use the words 'unfathomable', 'impossible' and 'beyond calculation'
Creationists have this problem of incredulity.
It's based on a simple lack of understanding of what can happen when almost inconceivable amounts of time are coupled with huge amounts of chemical and physical reactions.
Stuff happens. Some stuff works better than other stuff.
The stuff that works better than other stuff in its given environment sticks around longer and continues to work better and better
In some instance that stuff may change (or E.V.O.L.V.E) to a degree where it is almost unrecognisable from its original form.
This may be when a new species comes to pass.
Or it doesn't and dies out
Or the environment changes and it either adapts, improves further or dies out
etc, etc
Or the stupid people outfuck the clever ones.
Evolution - you can't really beat it coz you're part of it. Do try to catch up though
ahhh ignorance at its best as far as I can tell, the males and females of species don't evolve separately in fact, they evolve at the same time because in humans ONE CHROMOSOME out of 46 decides gender difference ONE CHROMOSOME and if the fact that males and females are the SAME SPECIES, and evolve together, is too much for you to swallow my friend, then I do believe you have no right to question biology. and let us not forget, science is NOT a religion, because if it were, then it would have absolutely no factual backing to it it is not a matter of faith, but a matter of reason
but don't listen to me im just a 15 year old kidwith a FRESH MIND growing up in a religious household and am open minded enough to tell the difference if you can convince me otherwise by all means I'll convert
Unbelievable! No Evolution is not a perfect science but to totally disregard it's ideas. Could this be the start of another form of "jihad", by not understanding the others views. I mean one of the teachers was telling the kids that "Jesus" was responsible for the creation. Jesus was a man and the faith says that he was the son of God. I mean if you are going to be so head strong in your "beliefs", get your f*ckin facts straight! Maybe they should read the bible instead of humping it.
You have your sacred books from prohets too. Evolution is a religion and it cannot be claimed otherwise. Most of the points made by the religion of evolution are countered by this simple fact.
This is how I feel my Father was a devout Catholic and since his parting I have continued the practice more for Him than myself and the only way I can do that is by NOT taking the bible as a strict guideline to everything. To believe that it is total fact is stupid to say the least - remember it was written hundreds of years ago when it was thought the world was flat.
Galileo was imprisoned for stating that the earth revolved around the Sun he was imprisoned for his trouble, not so long ago the church publicly apologised for this injustice so if the church can acknowledge that they have made mistakes and have evolved why can't you accept that maybe not all of the bible is to be taken literally.
Its these blind faith people of all religions that cause more trouble than I believe is worth. That in essence gives religion a bad name.
People make a lot of claims about what the bible says. Your point in history refers to catholicism, a very corrupt sect of Christianity, which teaches that you are to believe what the church(rome) tells you to and are not allowed to interpret the bible yourself.
Please inform me of where exactly in the bible it suggests the the earth does not revolve around the sun.
Ah, now you are not only selecting which pages of the bible are to be used in which situation, you also pick which christians are the true ones?
I do agree with you that the catholics are rather corrupt, but they are the largest group among the christians and even they have admitted that the bible is not to be taken by the word.
So there seems to be something even more wrong with whatever freaksow you belong to.
"...catholicism, a very corrupt sect of Christianity, which teaches that you are to believe what the church(rome) tells you to and are not allowed to interpret the bible yourself."
And where in this video are the children allowed to ask questions about what they are seeing, and are free to interpret the world using their own power of reason?
Or are they just being trained like a pack of obedient dogs to a single viewpoint?
I know that Catholicism is not perfect especially when you consider the filthy priests that are unable to keep their hands to themselves but if you think your branch of Christianity is flawless think again what ever branch it is REMEMBER if it was not for Catholics there would be no Christianity.
(now wether that is a good or a bad thing I don't know?)
Nefarious- that information can be found in Genesis and Job. You should really know more about a book that you subscribe to before your brain throws up out of your mouth.
What do I know? Nothing, and presume I am the ultimate short of my Creator, who I will never understand as long as I'm mortal. On the other hand, ya'll make some interesting arguments.
Merkin, Consider your heart instead of your brain. We all lack understanding, but our hearts can help correct our course.
Funnkazzy, You also seem pretty strong in your beliefs. By the way, God, came as a man, so there was no doubt we could relate to Him, and His death. Death, the final frontier, the place we fear, where He was willing to go for all of us. Just in case you haven't read that part.
Merkin, Have you ever wondered how God knows the end,...from the beginning?
"In the beginning I speak it, and My Word always accomplishes that which it is sent forth to do."
We can do the same. Example, I speak well over my child, he becomes same.
If I speak bad over my child, he becomes what I speak. His only hope is to meet someone that will finally speak well over him. He will run to that person.
There is nothing discovered that was not already there! There are many things that can be used to imply there is no God. There are many things that point to His existance.
The convergence of the two must be inevitable because both, are here. Our lack of understanding, which goes beyond just knowledge, keeps the two separate. Dino's and evidence of time exists, history and evidence of God do also. Our feable attempts to disprove One or the other illustrates shortsidedness on the part of all.
Now some observable, empirical evidence of God would probably end the argument for ever. PLEEEEASE show me some.
Oh. Wait.
There is none.
Evolutionary theory offers much more but admits it is incomplete and continues to ask questions.
That's the main difference between it and creationism which assumes the bible is the little pocket book of answers. All packaged up for the unthinking masses.
'He' disappointed me when control freak fuckwits took it upon themselves to make him up in an effort to manage the masses and make independent thought something frowned upon
These same human animals then compounded the problem by writing fairytales about him in a book which many idiots still regard as truth in the face of all sense and reason.
In fact God doesn't disappoint at all.
This is because he doesn't exist.
Humans disappoint (themselves and each other) but need blind faith to help themselves feel better about this fact.
Why can't you think - for example God created the world in 7 days well to God one day could be millions and billions of years how would you have explained the concept of a billion years to someone 2000 years ago you couldn't (just like how could you explain personal computers and the internet 100 years ago it would be impossible) When you claim that earth is only 10000 years old you lose any credence with someone who believes in science, carbon dating and dinosaurs.
The problem with Christianity is that the teachers are worthless and don't know crap and that is why this video looks so bad. Two gay guys trying to be preachers, please. Just think to yourself, Do you really think its all over when we die, hell no its been going on forever and will keep going on forever. Too many people in this world are "Know-It-Alls". When people say god spoke to them or touched them do you just assume they ALL are crazy in the head. Too many people have been "touched" for them all to be crazy, maybe a little weird but not crazy.
I suppose we could always pass a law that restricts their freedom of religion and speech. We could only allow Government approved churches and make it illegal to teach anything but Government approved text books. We can let the Government tell us what we need to know, after all they only want what is best for us.
Or we can let these kids grow up in a free country where there is freedom of ideas and differing veiw points, right or wrong, and as they grow they can choose for themselves what to believe. My prediction is that most, if not all, of these kids will eventually question what they have been taught.
Like onlyhuman said, there is this country called America where certain freedoms exist. Obviously, this includes the freedom to be stupid.
Sure, it may sound absurd to home-school your kids because you're afraid that public schools will "corrupt" them and teach them the theory of evolution. But it's also wrong to NOT let people do this. Although this particular group of home-schooled kids are taught distortions of reality, no government should be able to stop it. If this group of people had been publicly funded, that's an entirely different story.
Like the curator said, these kids will probably question or even dismiss what they have been taught. Only time will tell.
=======================================
800 x 7 is 5600, not "around 1000". This goes to show the quality of education these kids are receiving. Have fun being stupid! After all, it is a right!
If some "group" makes the decision to separate its beliefs, morals, and all other forms of living from the greater society in which it lives; then that group should not be surprised that the society in which it exists does not approve its teachings.
If you don't want to be invited to the party, and have asked not to be invited to the party, then don't act surprised that you have not been invited, and are unwelcome.
The guy only had one thing to say that made sense to me. He "chooses" to believe what he wishes, just as others "choose" to believe what they wish.
I just can't help mentioning this though. As he was mockingly showing the kids the "fairytale" of evolution I couldn't believe he would use that word to describe it. If he took a moment to think, the Bible is the most widescale fairytale ever to be told. It is a powerful fairytale, to be sure, but that does not mean all of it should be categorically accepted.
Fiddle1172, you made some great points. I can accept that there was once a man who walked among us, a special man, with many followers, who was a teacher of great worth. This man became powerful, and incurred the wrath of others who didn't agree with him. Stories and legends were started, and grew over the years. Following the words of Jesus would do no one any harm. Love thy neighbor. Nothing wrong with that. His message was treat others with respect and love. How did that all turn so bad? Millions of people suffering and dying in the name of "Jesus".
Can anyone tell me, if there was a God, this is what he would want? He would allow it? It is said, he gave us a choice, yet he controls all. Which is it?
He does not care what colour you are
provided you work for him;
he does not care how much you earn
provided youn earn more for him;
he does not care who lives in the room at the top
provided he owns the building;
he will let you say whatever you like against him
provided you do not act against him;
he sings the praises of humanity
but knows machines cost more than men;
bargain with him he laughs and beats you at it;
challange him
and he kills;
sooner than lose the things he owns
he will destroy the world.
repeat after me, god is the answer to all the problems in the world, he been doing so well to date;
the worse invention of man, that there is a supreme being; a cop-out for all of our failures;
god told the us to drop THE bomb, god told hitler to kill all the jews, god to bush to f*k cheney, so on and so fourth!
To Randalflagg: Yes, I believe in a creator. Do I understand everything about creation, NO. That should allow me to fit in with everyone in this conversation.
My ? is How is it so many of you are compelled to call people names while trying to make your point?
Proof of God? Clouds. At eight lbs per gallon, water floats along, enough water to cause the floods we are seeing in the news, for instance. Proof of God, ask any father of a newborn, as he holds him for the first time. PoG, there is a mountain in Saudi Arabia called Jabal Al Laws. The top is burnt black, the Saudi government has it fenced off as an Archialogical site. There are many features at the site that are specifically identified in the OT of the Bible. I have seen it. The mountain is Granite not volcanic. It is the real Mt. Sinai. Yes where Moses met with God.
POG, 27 years ago my life was changed. I was about to be murdered by my "buds" (fellow smugglers). Over heard them planning my assassination. My escape was nothing I could have ever planned. I did think of killing all of them, but that would have been my plan. God's plan was different. After my escape, a short time later, my dad introduced me to a black (Christian) friend of his. He told me stuff I needed to hear. A week later same guy intro'd me to a cute little gal. 5 months later I got married for the first time. That was 26 years ago.
I have a successful business (24 yrs), I have studied the bible, My wife and I have taught marriage principles in Russia, to young pastors. The 15 year old son I inherited is now a 40 year old Lt. Col pilot, in the Marine Corp, stationed at the Pentagon. A Godly young man that also serves his community through church. The wonderful 11 year old daughter I inherited is a beautiful person, married to a very successful Christian recording artist.
Proof of God? I'm not dead in some woods somewhere. When I talk with God He sometimes answers me. Often He brings an answer by reminding me of a verse. Proof of God? Once I got rid of my "stinkin thinkin" and read how God thinks, and tried to act on what I learned, my life changed for the better. Proof of God? He knows many of you are angry and disappointed. He is using me right now to assure you that He knows and loves you and is willing to reach out to you. He says, "You can stay angry or you can learn how much He loves you and how valuable you are to Him and have a better life". Proof of God, I have come to know how much I don't know. That's nobodies fault but my own. So I have learned to seek understanding. Not just knowledge. Check out Proverbs 8:14. %u201CCounsel is mine and sound wisdom; I am understanding, power is mine."
Proof of God? Life is good, even when there is trouble.
boy are you in for a surprise!
water doesn't float in clouds, it's a gas, that's science.
So you think people lived to be 800-1000 yrs old?
I lost a child, was that's gods work? the 4 kids and 8 grandkids I have are by my body not some supreme being.
"live is good" that's your proof? you have NO proof, none, nano, blame everything on sin, what a bunch of crap.
Congratulations on your turnaround from being a bad person to a functioning and caring part of the society.
The next step would be to get rid of the religious delusions. Of course your life gets better if you have a positive outlook and do constructive work and are part of the community. No gods involved there, just being a social human being.
The stuff you write about sites described in the bible is just more circular reasoning. Of course some of the things described in the bible did exist and things happened. There are other historical sources that support some of it. Though other stuff is just made up and overhyped.
Yikes! - Your Christian Science really is something to behold.
"...Proof of God? Clouds. At eight lbs per gallon, water floats along, enough water to cause the floods we are seeing in the news..."
If you understood science as well as those who pro port to understand God's plan for His creations, then you would not type such nonsense.
Liquid water weighs 8.34 Lbs/Gal, and clouds are composed of water vapor and other atmospheric grasses in suspension. That's why no one has ever been crushed by a cloud.
If this is the level of reasoning and understanding of (this very simple) aspect of science among the followers of the bible, then how can anything they say against evolution and geology, and all the other sciences have any relevance of any kind?
It is an igneous rock which normally forms as a result of molten magma intruding through other rock formations
In easy terms, it's usually the result of some form of tectonic and or volcanic activity. It comes in various colors too. Black being one of them
SOME of the stuff in the bible happened for sure. Stuff may well have happened at the site of this mountain that gained sufficient notoriety to be added to the bible. This in NO way makes for proof of God
The creationist element of the bible is absolute twaddle in scientific terms.
Your beliefs are your own business and I defend the right of anyone to adhere to whatever belief system gives them sustenance and inner strength.
But that is not quite the same thing as accepting a mish mash of creationist gibberish which has a political agenda and sociological subtext.
I become almost apoplectic when I read and hear some of the utter nonsense that is spouted on this topic.
Heil Skvirrel!
better said than I could come up with.
My dad died in WWII, a vet during that time said, " I guess god saved me", my question is, "so god wanted my dad dead?"
All of the utterances of God's word have been uttered by men, and thus all of God's words are to the service of those men who utter those words, and not to a Gods will.
It implies that God who is omnipotent, is on every level impotent.
To me it's plain and simple: Religion was created to "Put the fear of God into people", to control the masses. Simple people in simple times believed the whole "Hell" concept. The churches were and still are huge land owners, so instead of working their fingers to the bone it was easier to live off the working population....this is how modern government "evolved". People today aren't falling for it anymore because our way of thinking has changed.
Very well said, that's exactly how i feel. The bible is just a really long story that someone or some group came up with to give people something to believe in and to keep order. I will believe that until I'm shown good reason to believe otherwise.
Velcome to ze Church of ze Great Skvirrel!
Genuflect before his awesome bushiness. Vith His help, ve can live forever!
Gott in Himmel, zis schnapps is stronger zan I remember. Now I am hafing doubts. Is zere truly ein Skvirrel? Und is He Great? Is Technoviking really ein reincarnation of ze Mighty Rodent?
If ze Skvirrel truly created ze vorld und ze heavens, vy are ve not all skvirrels? Und vy do some people not like nuts? Vy do ve not sleep all vinter?
I must go into deep meditation und wrestle vith zese kvestions.
When I ask the Great Squirrel for rain, then he will honor my request with rain. Perhaps not at the time of my choosing, but it will eventually rain, so I know that there is a Great Squirrel, and His law is the only Law.
SQU 1:23:14 "I can't believe I created the whole thing."
OK Guys, IF,... God exists,.... then the father who died, if he believed, is not just worm food. He is happier now. Do you miss him? Of course. what if he had out lived you? Would he have been grieved, of course. That is why death was the only price God could pay that we would identify with. This world is not the final reward. Eternity is. God never loses. Your dad is probably just fine. If you have believed in Jesus as your savior, you will see your dad again. I think he would like that. Don't let the thankful comment of an individual be the source of your bitterness any longer. Your fathers sacrifice was so you could be happy. The Word say's there will be evil in the world. Many understand, your dad was fighting an evil force. Evil wants you to hate God or not believe in Him, or even more, believe in some other doctrine that promotes God as a mith. Why? Because you are created in His image. God can not be destroyed, except in your heart. Then you are destroyed also. Being miserable can be hell on earth.
One can detest the governments but the word says to submit as they are put in authority by God.
To A...face: You are right there is gibberish out there on creationism, there is also science on creationism. Just don't think for a minute that the evolutionists don't have an agenda also. NO GOD is their agenda. The fact is, evolution by it's very nature will have nothing to do with us in our lifetimes, EXCEPT, suggest there is no God, which it could never prove anyway. Ultimately one can always neutralize the tic-tac-toe game with the question, " Well then where did that come from?" and so on.
I am curious as to how many evolutionists are first and foremost, unbelievers in God? And has evolution simply been the vehicle that seems most likely to be able to "prove" HE doesn't exist! And then what? There is no God, so lets do what ever the hell we want and F*&%#k the rest of ya!
Right............
Life today is more important than trying to prove or disprove either evolution or God's existance. Only one of the two will gives any hope of a future, for tomorrow of for ever.
To webx3u: The "church" living off of the population must mean you are a former Catholic. Man's failings are not God's fault. "Religion has been the scourge of Christ." He was not religious. He came to put an end to Religiousness! All the hurt people have experienced often has been at the hands of "religious " people. And even they, thought they were right!!!!!
A personal relationship with God resolves many questions in a hurry. You stop looking at people for answers and understand they are working through this "life" too.
Why are YOU so concerned with what a scientist believes? If you believe that science is against God, then have you separated yourself from all of the works of the heathen sciences?
Do you drive a car, do you use electricity, antibiotics, a (GASP) computer, or do you pray and things appear and happen by Gods will. If they don't appear then how have you offended Him to be so shunned?
To be truly faithful, and not a hypocrite, then Stop using the implements of the heathen science, and live by Gods words alone.
Believe all you want Mountain man. Honestly. I have no problem with people having faith. None at all. It's a personal choice.
Just please, PLEASE don't jump on the creationist bandwagon that suggests there is science to back up its claims.
Doing that would make you the same as the pig ignorant assholes in this vid brainwashing their kids in an attempt to rationalise and support the insane view of a 6000 year old earth created in 6 days.
These kids will no doubt grow up in a world where the increased body of scientific knowledge will make them question the asanine views put forward by these two idiots in the vid.
That is if GWB and the rest of his rapture-lovin cronies don't press the little red button and destroy humanity through man made 'nucular' weapons
If that happens would that be the will of God or the will of an asshole?
BTW Mountain man you are incorrect in assuming 'No God' to be the agenda of evolutionists. You are looking at things far, far too simplistically if you think evolutionary theory is all about demeaning the existence of God.
The evolutionist agenda is SCIENCE and the advancement of human knowledge through the scientific method.
Creationists are threatened by this more than anything else for the simple reason that the scientific method kinda gets in the way of the ability to brainwash people that the earth is 6000 years old.
Let us assume for a second that you have a point though...Let's say evolutionists want to make God unnecessary. There are a number of responses to debunk this:
The goal of scientists is to explain the universe, period.
If that could best be done by including God in the equations it would be.
However as God is inscrutable, even to creationists, so God is useless as an explanation.
Explaining things without God does not make God unnecessary and so evolutionary theory cannot be accused of this.
Many people believe that God is necessary in their personal lives, regardless of his scientific implications or lack thereof.
The only thing that could save all religions is Christs return. Not just for the money leders either.
It's time to evolve;
OK that's enough for this dude. So did JC see his shadow? do we have 6 more weeks of winter or what?
If they are truly faithful to the word of God, then why are they concerned at any level with science, evolution, geology? Why be so concerned about fossil evidence and the strata of sedimentation. To question the fossil record is to have doubt in Gods creation, as per, why man and dinosaur fossils are not found together is to question God's creation. Why don't they just to continue to speak for God, and say that God created the fossil record as is, and it needs no interpretation? It could only be a problem for the faithful if they have no solid foundation in what they believe.
Loved the article below it. It talks about the skeleton of a young woman found in a third-century grave in northern Greece. Archaeologists said the large hole in the skull is evidence that doctors were performing brain surgery 1800 years ago and that the woman died either during or soon after the surgery
They gotta be fucking kiddin us right...Brain surgery? From the state of her skull it looks like they originally used axes for this complex procedure before deciding they just didn't have quite enough finesse for the job at hand.
Can just imagine the pre-op conversation:
"Nurse Aphrodite will the patient in ward 7 be going private or will Medicaid be taking care of her op fees?"
"Medicaid Dr Achilles"
"Thanks Nurse - pass me the axe"
By the way, on the greek note, to all young earth creationists, it is a strange coincidence is it not that the Greeks considered Uranus to be primordial and gave him no parentage?
Why do you lot collectively continue talking out of yours?
Whoa, guys. I guess this is why you don't bring up religion or politics in polite conversation. But screw polite conversation, right? I was going to write some big diatribe about evolution and religion, but anyone who has read this far is going to be worn out by now, so I'll just leave you with a quote and a link:
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.%u201D - Albert Einstein
I haven't read enough of this site to know if I totally agree with it, but it's interesting nonetheless:
Yeah, good point, but I still think this quote applies here. I would've said it if Einstein hadn't beat me to it. I figured I should just cite my sources.
The sun is god and I have proof, just look up! In the daylight idiot; you must stare at the sun for 6 hrs(no sunglasses that would show you don't believe) after 6 hrs you will be blind, now your ready; Faithful followers.
This sure does bring out the comments, by the way the bible doesn't say anything, you have to read it.
Go Sox
This misinformation that is forced fed to kids will lead to a decline in actual science leadership in America. Watch! They will grow up thinking the wrong thing and will NOT peruse science careers. They will shun science as "evil". Then the rest of the world will be the scientific leaders. HEY super Christians listen up. THERE IS a way to love jesus yet still learn the TRUTH about earths past. Just because the bible is scientifically wrong doesn't take away from Jesus' lessons. Why is it so hard for all of you? Why can't you detach your religion from school? It's all so black and white for you guys. I don't get it. Your super Christian, anti science philosophy is what will lead this country to backwards thinking. ....I'm a catholic. Which means i'm christian too. I believe in the words of Jesus. Yet i'm educated enough to know that the bible writers, although good w/ intent, weren't educated men. They were philosophers not scientists. I can detach the book of Genesis from what i learned in science. It doesn't bother me. Why does it bother you? ...... Guess what, the earth ISN"T 6 thousand years old. It's 6 billion. The American "Bibilicaly correct" movement reminds me of the persecution of Galileo and Copernicus during the middle ages. YALLL ARE SO BACKWARDS!!!!! and it will lead to a generation of kids who are equally backwards who will be great bible readers but work in gas stations NOT in laboratories. YOU FUCKS!!!!! You know why this movement is popular in the middle of America? Because all the rest of us who live in big cities are smart and you rednecks are bringing us down. UGHGHGHGH no more..i can't take it. I'm so angry right now.
Whazts next? We teach Jewish kids the Halocaust never happened either? lol jesus. Watch Zeitgeist. Watch Esoteric Agenda. Make the world a better place, punch a bible thumpin moron in the face.
Yup, it's like all the Christians i know who pick and choose what they want to believe from the bible. For example, it's ok to drink until they puke as long as they ask for forgivness and go to church the next morning. Than tell me i'm wrong for getting a tattoo because i'm harming my body. What gives? I know that's not all Christians but it is alot, I went to church every Sunday when I was younger, I observed all of it.
To Podman: Did I say I was against science? It is the investigation of what is already there. Meanwhile, I like my Lexus.
To Thebug: Did I say you had to be religious to be good? oh contrare. PS That's "scientifically" illiterate. Have you ever really investigated Creation Science?
To Mako100: This vid was presented to provide stimulus. There are always some out there that go too far and it ruins things for those who actually do have facts to contribute. When teaching kids, you can get away with more than you should. Hopefully when the questions do come up later in their lives, someone will bring balance to what they heard.
To Turbocop99: Like the quote.
To gymyg: There are many who have NO children, let alone 8 grand children. God didn't kill your child.
Of course he/she didn't kill my son , but while taking credit for so much, why not credit for both the good & bad? This teacher(I use that word because I'm tired of swearing) is leading these kids on, he doesn't have answers he has faith, you only get SO much credit for faith in life, you can't eat it, drink it or pay the rent with it.
That enough god talk for today, we always have alot of comments when something like this comes up.
I only hope these kids are my grandkids competition when they apply to colleges.
Mountain, I would like to respectfully reply to your post. Not inflame, just discuss.
Yes, there are some who go too far, blast and bash each other for our personal beliefs. Everyone is of course entitled to their own opinions, based on our life experiences.
When you say "God didn't kill your child", it brings on some confusion. To believe in God is to have blind faith that he made all, he knows all, he IS all, isn't that close to what religion encompasses? And what about the phrase, oft recited, "God called him home", when a person dies? This implies it was God's will when a person dies. Yet, apparently not always, according to your words to Gym.
It seems so many people pick and choose which parts they believe in, based upon what circumstances crop up.
Millions of people believe in God, Jesus, the Bible. Millions of others believe in Budda, or Allah and the Koran. Their belief is just as full of conviction and strength as any Christians. And then there are the ones who believe in science, or believe in nothing at all. SOMEbody is going to be in for a big surprise should there ever be a judgement day. Someone has GOT to be wrong here. Not all of them are right. There are many fine Muslim people, not Christians, but by your very faith, all of those people are condemned to hell for eternity because they don't embrace your way of thinking. It's really quite confusing.
In the words of the great and venerable Homer Simpson:
"What's the point? We're all slowly dying"
I live by that enlightening mantra.
Upon my death my body shall be delivered to the Parsi sect of India. They shall lay my remains out within the Towers of Silence and I shall return to the sky through Dokme Ni Shini. This is obviously contingent on there being enough surviving vultures to consume my corpse.
From what I understand, one of the big stages of child development is the toddler years, when children first really begin to grasp the concept that they are separate individuals from their parents and that their parents existed before them and were even children once themselves.
It's a struggle to comprehend at that age hence the tantrums, and says a lot about human nature.
When I look at creationists, I see people who haven't moved past the toddler stage in comprehending their relationship to the planet.
Knowing that the earth was here long, LONG before us and has a whole history that has absolutely nothing to do with us is an important step in the development of the human race.
Creationists are simply throwing a huge toddler temper tantrum and refusing to face up to reality.
"NO! It can't be true that Mother Earth had a life before me! Waaaaah! I shall brainwash my kids and shout loud about it and thus creationism will remain the truth"
The increasing realization that the world is ancient beyond comprehension has a big effect on our own views of ourselves and our place in the world.
It's important to honor this truth when attempting to debate a creationist.
Much like the three year old - if you underestimate their strength of conviction then you are also likely to underestimate the psychological distress that evolutionary theory puts on them.
Off the top of my head, here are the major philosophical implications if you are willing to accept the truth about evolution and how old the planet is
The planet has a life and history separate from ours. The knowledge that the Grand Canyon has been carved out over millions of years is a lot more dramatic a realization than the troubling toddler realization that Mom was a child herself once.
We are just another species of animal. The animal rights implications of this realization aside, the main implication of this is that we aren't so special. There are no pretty stories about how that cow you're eating is going to be up in heaven waiting to talk it over with you when you get there.
Therefore it's not that hard to extrapolate that if cows don't pass through the pearly gates, and we're animals just like cows, then we're probably going to just be dead meat one day, too. That's why I'll let the vultures have me!
Change is not only possible, but it's impossible for things not to always be changing. Hence evolution is the best theory to work with
More than anything, the story of Genesis has the underlying theme of futility to it%u2014things are just the way they are because someone ate an apple once, and you'd be foolish to change things? Gimme a friggin break.
The dynamic nature of evolution suggests another theme, which is not only have we evolved to this point, but that we are still evolving.
Donuts will be served at the wake by the way in honour of Homer.
Creation science is a contradiction in the term itself.
I have checked into a bit of that stuff and it is all bullshit. There are even a few creationists who actually hold scientific degrees and they write papers that look genuine, but if you look closer you find that they make assumptions or omit facts to come to their conclusions.
The basic mistake of the creationists is that they already know the answer and then they start to build completely harebrained constructs to prove that the answer is correct. Of course this involves dropping facts and outright lying.
Though since the majority of the people don't have a very deep understanding of science it is relatively easy to impress them with a complex talk that ends in the simple answer: GOD MADE IT SO!
Our understanding of the universe and everything is far from being complete. Religion was one step in the evolution of human knowledge, it was a step up from outright superstition and imposed rules that were supposed to be valid even for the ruling class. Though still clinging to concepts that are thousands of years old makes not much sense any more, few people insist on not using cars electricity etc. just because they were not mentioned in the bible. Clinging to the literal interpretation of genesis is as stupid as that, human development has (or should have) passed that stage.
The current state of human knowledge leaves no room for a god inside this universe, you may feel free to assume there was some godly force involved in pressing the methaphorical button to start the big bang.
I have no problem with people (privately) practicing some kind of religion, but I do have a big problem with people defying reality like by claiming their old book (with doubtable historical reputation) is the only answer.
These two guys should be arrested for screwing up those kid's heads. No difference here as what's going on in the madrassa's of Islamic countries.
Desperate, religious fanaticism in the face of the truth. It's all about power.....or the loss of it.
I fear you are completely missing the point.
Your personal spiritiual beliefs and experiences should in no way get in the way of good science.
And you throw in a big red herring when you say the Theory of Evolution is somehow a denial of the existence of a higher power. There is no reason why an intelligent force should not have accommodated evolution.
However, the adherence to a rigid unscientific doctrine of creationism which states that the world was formed 6,000 years ago is as laughable as it is ludicrous.
Please rethink this one. You do not have a monopoly on faith or any right to tell others what they should believe based on fantasy and fairy tales. Children deserve better.
I was raised in a Catholic elementary school in the 50's where I was taught evolution by nuns. Creationism was not taught at all. I was taught that the theory of evolution is consistent with Christian thought.
I am made ill by uneducated parents who encourage their children NOT to pursue an education. The thinking is that their children, once educated, would abandon the family. How selfish is that?
I do think that what we don't understand, we incorporate into religion. The "teachers" in this video have a lot they don't understand and therefore perpetuate the ignorance, afraid their children might understand what they themselves do not.
garbage, didn't you slag everyone off somewhere, but now post as if nothing has happened, can you be trusted Garbage, are you a little two faced maybe?
whoops..... *eh hem* excuse me. That article you posted the link to.... it's correct because my biology instructor at the time had cut it out of USA Today. (sometimes my fingers don't want to type all the words in my dome)
I think you've got the wrong man, skidmarks.
I don't think I'm any more two-faced than the next man, and I certainly don't recall ever "slagging everyone off". Most people seem to trust what I say. Of course, if you can provide an example of me being different on Glumbert, I'll be willing to eat humble pie.
I currently am. But that's only because my missus has gotten pissed with me for sitting on front of Glumbert ranting for no apparent reason... Once I explained it all to her she told me I was a dick and went to bed
I think she has a point.
(BTW this will never stop me from taking the piss out of young earth creationists)
gymyg: God did take credit for both good and bad, they killed Him for it.
My experience may be personal but it has been real good since Jesus came into my life.
Freetobe1962: Appreciate the civility. re: "God called them home". My personal understanding is that God "receives" those who come home suddenly. The laws of phyisics has killed before God has. Cars, falls etc. For many the phrase is comforting to themselves.
One of the greatest things (for me) is that I have never given myself the liberty to pick and choose what to believe in the bible. Different situations are addressed by various verse. Often I am kept in check by the Word. It is a governing force, a guide. It lives and I am proof of it's influence potential.
This is a personal experience I know but not unknown in my community.
As I said earlier, I don't need to doubt evolution. It will not effect me or my children in their lifetimes BECAUSE its effects require eons of time to be evidenced. However, my kids and maybe yours, can be effected in most positive ways NOW, TODAY, by what is called "religion". We experience it as a relationship with the Creator. Real things happen for our benefit in this relationship. Tangible things. My step-sons character, an honorable, hardworking, bright, disaplined, father of three, is a tangible reward to me. I am proud of him. He is as he is because he has a personal relationship with the Creator of the Universe. His mother and I told him when I came into their lives, that we would all follow the same rules. I was held accountable just as he was growing up. We have a great family.
I know many out there have not had the experience I have. They think I'm an idiot. It's OK. I try my best to think like HE does. If that is idiotic then I'll take it. " The Word says He uses the simple to confound the wise." I personally know it was grace, for me. I was a wiseguy.
My mentality is "mountainclimber" WHY? You've been reading why.
Your mentality is "garbage" why? Because you've never read what HE says about you. To each his own choices. Maybe you were treated like garbage.
HE would treat you differently, however His Word says, " As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he." I had to change my stinkin thinkin to ever get anywhere. Glad I did. Still workin on it
A priest, a Rabbi and an Athiest are walking down the road when they find a large bag of coins. After much debate on what to do with them, the priest says "We will draw a large circle on the ground. Then we will toss the coins into the air. The ones that land inside the circle, we give to the church, the rest we keep" The rabbi speaks up and says, "no no, we draw a small circle. We throw the coins up, in the circle goes to the church, outside to us". The athiest says "How about this. We'll throw them up in the air, whatever God catches, he can keep".
Hi everyone,
Look, I don't think whether you believe in creationism or evolution is the point here. Personally the evidence has led me towards evolution but I have no problem with people believing otherwise. The problem here is the way in which they are 'teaching' their belief. Surely even creationists in this forum would agree the way these children are being 'informed' is nothing short of brainwashing - they mock and belittle ideas the children are in the early stages of encountering and ignore facts such as the methods of radiometric dating. When they are questioned by the interviewer their answers are less than convincing; they stutter and stumble over ideas and theories that sound made up on the spot (such as the age people lived to).
Surely even the creationists would not want their beliefs taught by people like these??? If you really have faith in your beliefs then you would be willing for both sides to be presented and let people decide for themselves.
What these people are doing is sick, taking advantage of kids. they talk about 'bad science' and 'fairytales' yet don't offer any facts to back anything up other to say it's in the bible.
Poor kids ... these people are blind to anything apart from their faith, a faith that is based on a book written several hundred years after Christ died. Totally bonkers!
As I listened to the vid, the guys said the dino's didn't eat meat until Adam sinned? I have never found this expressed or implied in all the Bible reading I have done.
My understanding is that the Dino era proceeded man and was likely terminated when the Arizona Meteor hit the earth causing a "winter".
I also heard the curator say that evolution was the one concept that "holds all of biology together", "that nothing in biology would exist without evolution"
I was a biology major in college, nobody Prof taught that premise. Only in recent years ( 20 ) are you hearing such a comment. His statement sounds exclusive of any possible creator.
Just saying that there is extremism on both sides.
The may seem blind but I think both sides could bring less theory and more fact to the table. On the other hand this may be an impassable point because at the core is God vs No God.
Some will believe and some won't. I welcome the science but I can't ignore the text written 700 years BEFORE Jesus. This is the significance of His birth, and life. Various historical individuals spoke of His coming, even where He would be born. All these things came to pass.
It is not fantasy and all faith.
The oldest person in the bible was 965 years old. His name means " when he dies it will come". When he died, the flood occurred.
PS: Like most people, when on camera, some loose their cool and go off.
thebug: They will need some more proof, thats why it is still debateable.
Mountain, your faith is strong, even in the event of ridicule and disagreement. It has made you a better and happier person. In that context, religion can be a joyous experience, and I wish you continued happiness in your family.
So often though, religion causes people go to off the edge, become so obsessed they are willing to kill, or die, in the name of religion. Personal beliefs should be a tool to enhance your life, which you have obviously chosen to do.
Do I have to believe the same things as you to respect you? No. I can respect the fact you are able to concede, maybe mistakes on both sides of the issue in this vid, not just blindly yell out that the creationists were 100% correct, and the evolutionists were jerks.
I happen to think the two creationist "tour guides" were more than a little vague on their explanations. Surely they are not the representatives that those kids should have been exposed to. And I think it was more the two of them, and they way they did it, that was more offensive to some people than the idea that parents want to teach their kids religion.
As to the whole "Does God exist?" - thing. I forgot who said it but- "If God is all powerful and created all things then He created evil, too. If He can prevent evil, and does not, then He is malevolent, If He can and will not, the He is uncaring, If He cannot - then He is not omnipotent and why call him God?" or to paraphrase Twain in Letters from the Earth- Before they ate the apple, Adam and Eve were immortal. They had no concept of Good, Evil, or Death. "Eat the apple and you will die" had no meaning to them. Yet they pissed Him off sooooooo much by eating that apple, that He not only punished them, but all their descendants, with Death and suffering. The All Knowing then allowed them to breed like bunnies and become so "wicked" that He had to send a Flood to purify the Earth, saving Noah and his family to restart the race and lead to the "wickedness" of today. Now, if He is All Knowing, wouldn't He have known that Eve would give in to the serpent and bring all the misery and offense to His Way? Does this not then make Him the Ultimate Criminal?
While I have no problem with teaching your kids to be good, decent human beings, can't you do it without the threat of eternal damnation? I, too, was once an asshole who did bad things to others in pursuit of my own version of happiness. I, too, had some close brushes with death at the hands of those I'd pissed off. My way out was pure luck (i.e. chance) that I took advantage of. I don't think that some Being in the sky (who had to sacrifice part of Himself in order to forgive His own creation?!?!?) had anything to do with it. Being an atheist only means that I believe in one less god than you. I realized the error of my ways and now am trying to leave the world a better place than I found it, not because the Holy Spirit touched me, but because it is just the right thing to do. (It is rather amazing what looking down the business end of a 9mm will do for your outlook on life).
I take off for a few days, and I miss all the real decent clips that spark great debates. Oh well.
I dunno if I can be as eloquent or concise as Mako, Freetobe, Skidmarks or Podman......but considering the topic at hand, I'll give it my best shot:
These two "teachers" in this clip......are fucked.
These HOME-SCHOOLED (natch) kids are going to grow up the same way: Fucked.
The whole concept of the particular kind of "christianity" that these ass-backwards dolts represent.....is fucked (plus, the entire concept of "christianity" is fucked, as far as I'm concerned).
I watched this video clip from start-to-finish...and I could actually FEEL my blood pressure start to spike. If I was the curator of that museum, and I watched and listened to this freak show while they were touring, I swear I'd have to stab myself in the throat to keep from kicking their ignorant, superstitious, puss-fueled asses into the middle of the next millenium. Assholes. Pukes. Zealots. Pricks. Thank fuck we've at LEAST come into an age, where shitpokes like THESE can't burn critics like ME at the stake for heresy (like they used to be able to do), and we're free to at least fuckin' think somewhat.
Nefariousprior, I have read many of your comments over the several months, and you know what? You're a fuckin' idiot. A Bible-Lovin'-George Bush-Supportin'-Iraq-War-Is-A-Great-Thing-God-Bless-America-And-No-One-Else-Fuckin'-Grade-A-Jesus-Lovin' IDIOT. I bet you sit around and get an erection just thinking about the Rapture...don't ya? Ya think JAYZUS is suddenly gonna lift all little-ass-kissers like YOU, up to the land of Free Cable T.V. and Jerry Falwell for Eternity...don't ya? Well, how 'bout you fucking come out from behind that little altar of yours, and let me KNOCK YOU THE FUCK OUT!!! Okay?? I mean, I'd really love to see J.C. airlift your sorry, grovelling ass out of THAT one, you fuckin' puke. Do me a favour, ok? Keep your ignorant, superstitious sorry ass in that fuckin' cave of yours. Stop coming out here on these threads, and pissing me off by SHOWING OFF your backward stupidity. Evolution is a "religion"??? OH SHUT YOUR FUCKING PIE-HOLE, AWRIGHT?? Like, are you THAT fucked in the head??? Goddamn Zealot. It's bad enough all of YOU are fucked in the head, but now folks like YOU have to poison the minds of innocent kids. Pray to whatever fucked-up vengeful, confused "God" you have that I'M not running the fucking show around here. If I was, then idiots like YOU would NEVER be able to show their corrupt, ignorant faces in public again, on penalty of being lined up against a wall, and FUCKIN' SHOT!!! (for sheer stupidity, if nothing else).
And where the fuck is Streamlined?? I got more of this for HIM. HE needs a dose of this, too.
If you fuckin' zealots really want to follow a decent religion, then I can pick two out for you, that to the best of MY knowledge are two of the truly benign, calming influences we have:
Buddhism and Wicca.
Niether one of them have a nutty, plague-inducing, tantrum-prone ""God", who either sends you to roast in "Hell", or wipes out the planet on a "flood"; rather, they both actually have an altruistic worship of PEACEFUL things....CALM things.....HARMLESS things. The last thing folks in those camps want to do, is throw planes into buildings, or throw bombs at abortion clinics, or beat women senseless, or spew hate because of someones sexual orientation.
You want YET ANOTHDER example of how screwed in the head, these nutty "christians" are (especially when they're in positions of power holding elected office)??:
Got myself a years severance pay (hoping this isn't me staring down the barrel of a world wide recession) and about to enjoy some time off. Asia's growing fast tho so maybe a relocation to shanghai is in order. Will miss the beaches but the extra cash in the bank means I can get to them when I need to
Oh well. Air miles are worth something whilst we continue fucking the planet
Not sure whether this means more or less time here :-)
canuck don't hold back tell us how you really feel.
You must be in a shitty mood buy a dog and kick it nefariousprior sounds like a crazy dickwad but I didn't read anything aggressive in his/her posts hope you are taking meds for blood pressure cause it sound like you're at risk of a aneurism.
Interesting link. I think "Do we really need Congress to say Christmas and the Christian faith are important?" is just the first step to a national religion.
Finely, a thread worth reading! I'm not sure if this is stream or not? Though he does not have that certain arrogance about him. No insult intended stream. Just a fact!
I'll admit I am not the sharpest knife in the draw no no I can admit it I know its hard to believe.
But I gotta say you creationists are scary fucking people its that absolute blind faith - kind of reminds me of suicide bombers it really does.
I never thought I would say this but you creationist are that f**king scary I think I would prefer a negro, wetback, gook, nip, wasp, wop or even a homo live next door to me than one of you I'd even take canuck first.
I feel unclean after posting that I have to go and shower.
Freetobe: First thanks. I am very thankful for my family. Second, you are right, we are fighting a war against "religious" people who can not get to "heaven" except by killing "unbelievers". That's us, by the way.
I respect their commitment, commitment is hard to come by in people. What they are committed to is the problem.
Ditto's on the guides.
oneeye: Oh yeah, 9mm's. In Genesis 3:22 ( after they ate), God says " and now they have become like one of Us (plural) knowing good and evil." It goes on to say He cast them out to keep them from eating of the tree of life and living forever (in that state). Eve thought they would become wise, by eating. Not so, knowledge by itself is dangerous. We miss judge people and situations based on knowledge alone. We lack wisdom to administer the knowledge!
Yes, God knew they would sin. He says so when He says, " For this reason a man shall leave his Father and Mother and cleve to his wife." There were no father's and mother's! Just God. I can prove God was speaking about Himself. Remember, Adam didn't thank God for Eve. He just said, "Bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh." God knew Adam would choose Eve, and eat. Upon eating of the Tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, their judgement was impared, until a later time in history. Until then, everybody kept judging and multiplying and it came back upon them (Matt 7:1-2) until, (as you said), it became so bad, God was sorry He made man. "Judging others had brought man to a pitiful state."
As a matter of fact Jesus came because of the sin of "judging". He personally says so when speaking to the blind man that He healed. The "religious" Pharasees had wrongly judged the blind man and condemned him by throwing him out of the temple. John 9:39 And Jesus said, %u201CFor judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.%u201D
The Word also says, Jesus didn't come to judge the world but to save the world. So, he can not be speaking of Him judging anything! The blind man had just been judged and Jesus having heard of this outrage came to him and says (in context), I came (into the world) , because of the sin of judging (judgement)!
Canuck1963 Seems to think he sees. Maybe he will become blind, (figuratively, lest anyone misunderstand), so he will cease to say (and speak, to his own destruction). Wicca huh? No wonder.
In spite of the vomit, God knows you are sick to your stomach. He is the Great Physician you know. Of course He will need to examine you. If you will let Him. Sometimes the bread we want from Him, feels like a stone when He gives it. The truth can hurt, briefly. Eat it anyway, you'll feel better.
I've been fine, friend!
I don't normally get angry, but this guy mountainclimber is a total FUCKING MORON! Why do you think Glumbert put this vid on you stupid man? To let us see how insidious and evil the creationist mesage is, that's why FUCKWIT!
If I ever hear or see guys like them - or YOU you self righteous PRICK - tryng to feed children this dark ages shit I will personally cut your balls off. You are no more a Christian than, I don't know, a fucking slug. Keep your poisonous crap to yourself. Get it into your head - there is NO debate here. You are SIMPLY WRONG! No argument. Now FUCK OFF!!!!
Whether you believe in the Gospel or not, what those two guys are doing is criminal. While child abuse is so broadly reported on by the media today, it's incredulous that this kind of long lasting damage to a childs mind is tolerated. Teach them to be good and caring human beings WITHOUT the fear. That's THE WAY to an advanced, just and righteous society.
If I were curator of that museum I would put up a sign saying "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" and kick such assholes out of the place.
Mountain man 'because it is there to work with' is not an answer in the context of a discussion on creationism. What is the 'it' you are talking of? Words written by man in a book called the bible?
WHAT is there to work with in creationism that would provide better evidence than that which supports evolutionary theory?
Why is a belief in Buddhism (or ANY other faith including wicca) less relevant than your belief in a Christian God?
HUGELY arrogant of you to assume that.
Like I said before believe away, but don't for one minute think that as a result of your beleif your life is in ANY way more worthy than Guarani amerindians who follow animist religion.
They are equally justified in thinking that your belief is a 'lame substitute' for their God or Gods
You're beginning to sound a little fundamentalist...
Mako: The reason I can make it fit is because it's there to work with. Knowing where the answers are means you have the answers. Blind has nothing to do with it.
Bhudda is a happy little statue, dead and buried. Wise maybe, God?,..no.
Wicca, witchcraft, white witches, just a lame substitute for a god, when the real thing is available. Canuck's tirade really makes Wicca look good, oh yeah. No thanks.
Garbage, I already said the guys were posing because of the cameras. No matter how much one raves or threatens, the verdict is still way out on evolution and that's why it remains debatable. No self righeousness here just a changed man.
Garbage, ...I suppose you ARE a christian? What is a Christian supposed to be in your thinking? I haven't threatened you, or called you names.
Who dumped on you to begin with? How did you come to hate Christianity?
The vid was put on to GET a REACTION, manipulation, response! And,..it did
FINALLY,.... like "oneeye" said, I used to talk and think like you guys. No more. As I told some "friends" years ago, there's a better life. I took it.
It works for me. It would work for you too.
Any Christian that's up to speed doesn't have to push the fear button. I haven't said anybody is "goin to hell". I don't have to. What I so say is, "You don't have to." We all know ourselves. That is why we are so pissed off, toward others. Especially if they seem happy. Why are they so together, dammit? There is a reason!
Right now I am your problem. I like Goofus' point about teaching them, but I suppose somebody "preached" the fear stuff to him. I am against the fear stuff although there will be a "fearful day".
God will take care of those children's thinking. He focuses on the important things,.....peoples hearts.
I am done. Read some of what I said earlier. I would answer a question if asked.
Garbage: It was never about the video.............He says, it was always about you. Dare to ask Jesus into your heart, I dare you!
Go ahead, thumb your nose at God. Dare Him to be in your life. Dare Him,.......
Mountain man 'because it is there to work with' is not an answer in the context of a discussion on creationism. What is the 'it' you are talking of? Words written by man in a book called the bible?
WHAT is there to work with in creationism that would provide better evidence than that which supports evolutionary theory?
Why is a belief in Buddhism (or ANY other faith including wicca) less relevant than your belief in a Christian God?
HUGELY arrogant of you to assume that.
Like I said before believe away, but don't for one minute think that as a result of your beleif your life is in ANY way more worthy than Guarani amerindians who follow animist religion.
They are equally justified in thinking that your belief is a 'lame substitute' for their God or Gods
You're beginning to sound a little fundamentalist...
The most important point behind the video was when the paleontologist explained that he himself was raised in a religious environment that essentially believed the same dogma as the two so-called teachers with these children in the museum. It was his own intellectual curiosity that led him to make the break from dogma to science. In all liklihood, most of the children shown here will eventually mature and as with most youth will rebel and question the authority of the elders. In time most of these youth in spite of the likes of their bible belching teachers will succomb to reason and develop their own views of science and religion. The scientist in the clip is the epitome of what the teachers fear the most. A free thinker in spite of his upbringing and exposure to literal christian interpretations of the age of the earth and science.
It is truly amazing that characters such as these continue to find an audience but they do. Their franchise BC or Biblically Correct has a nice connotation that the parents of these children cozy up to and assume simply because these guys are Christian they will do something good for their children. The real leap of faith is when parents are willing to turn their kids over to characyers like these on the premise that they are christians so therefore, they must be good for my kids.
How many parents out there today regret leaving their children in the custody or care of priests? All these so called agents of god are just people like the rest of us only they have this empowering schtick that enables them to gain trust from adults and then to prey upon innocent children. Priests and characters like the two in the clip are sad case humans that use the cloak of religiousosity to empower themselves to make a living while peddling snake oil medicine amongst those that trust them.
These human types once had a great stranglehold on much of society and held sway with people of power, but they have been losing serious believers and followers for the past 150 so years and will continue to do so as time goes on. Every few decades they have some temporary minor gains that bring forth yet another period of people seeking faith. None of these periods last but a generation or two after people by their own senses come to the realization that all these people have to offer is the same promises of the past but nothing in the course of time actually changes as promised.
Go see the movie, "There Will Be Blood" and witness the great acting by the man playing the young preacher. He captures the essence of the slimy side of these men of faith and just how sincere they are about the beliefs they espouse.
1. These two guys need to be lessoned themselves...preying on maleable minds like this is beyond reason.
2. Actually, I believe in God.
3. You don't have to.
4. My "take" on God is that He is responsible for instilling life into the universe...but He is not responsible for how life progresses. Much "progress" might be from evolvement of life forms...I think it is, though not conscious decisions by those evolving.
5. I value life. I love life. Being a "believer" is onerous...but I believe life is the ulitmate value while here in this world...hence, the rejection of religions that demand adherence at all costs, and which enable their adherents to murder other human beings in the name of whatever faith they propound.
6. I also believe that what was done in one age need not define the beliefs of a subsequent age. I say that because, like America continuing to forgive itself for slavery 250 years ago, Christianity ought to be able to get past the extraordinarily unique blotch the Crusades (and the Inquisition, and other politcal extremes perpertrated by worked on civilization at that time.
In each age there have been grotesque errors, as we judge them now, from far distant and unrelated viewpoints.
But....the New Testament, which focuses on love and caring for one-another, also redifines many less sanguine notions of the Old Testament which often stressed retaliation, vengeance, and similar negative, and other grisely ideas.
That's the "evolution" of the Christian thought, I think.
I am not a theologist....went to a high school directed by Christian Brothers, went to a college (Siena....won the MAAC, and got to second round in the NCAA's, as a really teeny school vs the biggees) where I was warmed by the relaxed and reasonable notions of the brown Fransicans...a terrific order...made friends with a bunch of Catholic priests over time....NEVER NEVER a hint, smote, tweek, whatever....of less than fully supportive dedicated priests. Love my Catholicism....welcoming of all views, so long as they are devoutly held.
Sorry...the above got posted because my fingers suck...they do buttons they shouldn't. So...the preceding is unedited. But after reading it, I don't mind the few errors.
...well, maybe "honestly held" instead of "devoutly held" might be an improvement...the word "devout" possibly being over-religiosized and thus stripping atheism from its depth of meaning for those of that inclination.
Y'see?? THAT is my whole point about fucking zealots like yourself.
Wicca is NOT "witchcraft", you dumb, ignorant, backwoods, mountain-dwelling half-wit. It's NATURE-based, you apostle-loving fruitcake. And how the fuck does a skanky-assed zealot like YOU decide what "god" is real or not? Huh? And that's your take on Buddhism? It's "a happy little statue, dead and buried"?? 99.9 per cent of the time, "christianity" breeds simple goddamn bigotry and intolerance and ignorance; whether it's bigotry or intolerance towards other faiths, or ignorance of scientific principles, it still amounts to the same thing: clueless stupidity run rampant, just because someone, somewhere (usually "christians" like yourself) just couldn't fuckin' use some common sense, and instead took something to the Nth degree. Pure and simple. I can put this to rest RITH THIS SECOND AND CALL A CHECKMATE, you sanctimonius, bible-thumping, Yahweh-screeching fucking mook:
Name me ONE documented human death directly attributed to the religious beliefs/practices of Wicca or Buddhism.
ONE.
Now shut your fucking sewer gate, and stop making yourself look like a bigger shitpoke than you already do.
Asshole.
P.S. This all goes double for Nefariousprior, A.K.A. Shitpoke #2.
And I do NOT count those that have comitted suicide in the name of their beliefs whereby they've hurt only THEMSELVES.....rather, those Buddhists and/or Wiccans who have hurt OTHERS in the name of their "belief".
canuck, have a beer and cool down, you can not beat reason into empty heads. Our bible jockeys have the ultimate truth since it is written in the bible and when it is written in the bible it must be true since it is written in the bible whuich is true since the bible says its true and it is written in it.
Sometimes I wonder if it would be possible to build a cult around the telephone book of a larger city...
hmmmm....Canuck, you are screwing up your image of objectivity, I think. ..that is, assuming you ever wanted to be seen as objective.
Christianity has a fairly large constituancy...in my opinion, most are not zealots who breed "simple goddamn bigotry, intolerance, and ignorance" - could it be that you might be overgeneralizing? I mean, "Christianity" encompasses a lot of folks. Could be, some are just as fervent, and socially responsible as you are...some, perhaps, even more.
Pull in your horns, Cman.
Chill.
You are blustering...I know from personal experience that this is not a good thing.
Have a Cape Cod oyster - reflect - have another. Six would be good...a dozen better. I guarantee you'll see things differently afterwards.
Hey mountainshitter!
Newsflash just in. The BBC has just reported the oldest human remains ever found have been discovered in a cave in Spain. They are dated at 1.2million years old.
How do you like them potatoes fuckface? Now will you fuck off and give us all peace. Admit defeat fairytaleboy. Believe any shit you like but don't try to teach kids your bullshit. Cretin.
I was a biology major. I have no problem with science. I do know what I have experienced. Science did not get me there, although I still look in wonder at all of creation.
Science is important. Evolution however does not strike me as a critical science. It's fine to pursue it but from my observations the conclusions sought raise the question as to whether all of "this" happened by accident.
No genius here just practical.
Time factors are critical to the claims and presumptions of evolution. I have a need for solutions today. Do I respect the pursuit of knowledge, absolutely. Did Dino's exist, of course. Did man come into being at some point, obviously. Did he evolve, in some ways, yes. Was it more evolution or adaptation? Were all of the evolved men washed away at the flood, leaving only Noah's people? Do tadpoles turn into frogs, yes. Was that a natural gestation yes. Was that evolution, no. Was there a world of creatures before man, I think definitely yes. Where did they originate from, don't know. I'm not a paleontologist. Is it cool to study that, sure. Do I think there is an explanation that allows for what we see in paleontology and in Christianity? YES. We just are not at that junction yet.
I teach in Russia sometimes. I know how the Czar influenced the church to the point of causing revolution. The people were no longer the focus of their Christianity. Russia was a very devout country in it's early years. Your references to stranglehold's sounds like the early European church, predominately Catholic. ( There are plenty of great Catholic people out there.) I am trying to think historically.)
It seems many in this blog are suffering from priest issues. I am not a Catholic but I am aware of some history and of course current news items. I remember from boyhood friends, how the parocial schools were very strict and the nuns were mostly "fearful" in their management techniques. I am only generally aware of Catholic policy regarding personal bible study, that the priest interpreted the bible. I am afraid this lead to much of a given Catholic's undertanding of The Word to be totally at the mercy of the Priest. Not always a good thing.
Whether Catholic or otherwise, you are right, most of us let our guard down to the "Christian" ID as a preclusion that what ever they say is Gospel. Our family has learned to be more cautious. In fact Paul was encouraged by the Berean's because they verified everything he (Paul) said through study, referring of course to the Torah and Talmud, which is the Old Testament as we know it.
It is true the promises are always the same, because the Word never changes. So implimentation of the Word and having a resulting effect that is real, must come from a different way of relating to it.
All I can say is, I used to be a very different sort of person. The Word not only changed me, it had an effect on my business, my relationships, and brought about opportunities that I never would have dreamed of.
I was a loser. Now, by grace and the gift of righteousness, (which is a real gift by the way) I have been receiving the benefits talked about in the Word for 26 years. Even my troubled days are brought into calm by a peace that certainly surpasses my understanding. Yet, I do understand as my relationship with my Creator "evolves". The result? My faith in Him grows.
I have not seen the movie. Your description makes your point. Men always screw things up. Even the best of them. I am sure Billy Graham would confess failures of some sort. I have simply concluded to never burden a man, any man, with a pedestal he must carry. I save him and myself alot of grief. There are many that I can respect though.
PS Mako: I do not require them to believe as I do. My understanding of their beliefs even though limited has made the comparison. To me,...there is no contest. Daily, I experience afirmative results from my beliefs. They can believe as they will, I do not condemn them. I see all people as God's creationa and potential children. Jesus died for all men.
It is God's business as to when their opportunity will come, according to my beliefs. In the meantime I am not allowed to judge ANYONE. I don't have to condone bad behavior, but I am not to raise my voice or heart in judgement against anyone. If I do, I propel myself into being judged and found guilty also. Look at Matthew 7:1-2. ie "Judge not..." Some situation will come about and leave me guilty in a similar way to the one I judged. Seeing this, I must then realize the presumptuousness of my act. God,....is the only judge and He judges accurately and righteously.
Even ball players remember the fundamentals. That's the basis for their success. The advanced practice makes them really good.
I simply see God working in my life. He is a real and living God. He hears and answers. He invested in me,...and you too for that matter.
You state: "...but I am not to raise my voice or heart in judgement..."
Then what is this:
"Bhudda is a happy little statue, dead and buried. Wise maybe, God?,..no."
"Wicca, witchcraft, white witches, just a lame substitute for a god, when the real thing is available."
Have you studied and practiced these faiths to cast your judgment upon them as being godless? What is it when one becomes a Christian they become the wisest and most learned people on earth?
What is the origin of the arrogance displayed by you and your fellow Christians from their vast learning obtained from reading that single book?
After you fix your life by finding your God, you become an expert on everyone else's faults both spiritual and moral, to the point that you can degrade Buddhism that has existed far far longer than Christianity, and is practiced by 350 million people.
You also somehow become experts in every field of scientific study by reading the bible? How is it you can write with such arrogance to the accuracy and legitimacy of the science, and other religions, but you have not studied either to any level that will allow you to write with even a modicum of intelligence?
No christian I know would EVER dis a vet. My son is a LT. COL in the Marines, chopper pilot, Somalia, now Pentagon. I signed up as a Marine in 67. so.... lighten up. It's not healthy and neither I nor this discussion are worth you having a coronary.
One thing about Christianity. No matter how pissed off you are at God, or somebody like me, (which was not my intent), God still loves you and will until you die. He does recomend you forgive. First, I apologize for letting this get you this hacked. It should never have gotten this far.
I've asked before but I'm being overlooked in all your correspondence you seem to be involved in? lol! MC, once again have you ever read the Gospel of Thomas?
Pod I'm not certain,tho I have and do if only for the reasoning in my own life.
Finding a true christen is like trying to find a true communist,or better yet a Mexican war hero. Not impossible, just hard to find is all.
I am now reading this Gospel of thomas Which I find to be somewhat more honest then the abridged version of the Bible. MC doesn't seem to want to converse with me So I'm feeling a bit slighted :( .
I know what you are saying. I have been judged by so many Christians, and cast into hell by their will that God must be asking why?
And you ever notice that those who discover Christianity after being involved in a life of depravity, are the ones who are most likely to express their 'finding God' to everyone else as if they were the on on earth to do so.
Budda is in a grave, Christ isn't.
Wicca: Originated in witchcraft, currently said to be about nature and follows many beliefs like humility, kindness, receiving back 3 times what you give out, all of it with out recognizing the author of those qualities, God, Jesus and The Holy Spirit. There is also a continuing practise in spells etc. all of which are forbidden by God in the Word.
I do not adhere to there beliefs. I do care about them as human beings, as I am sure most of them do likewise.
Just curious. where did you get your stats.
Assuming one has not studied seems a little arrogant.
If Christians seem totally arogant to you Podman, then let me rise to the occasion and apologize for all Christians everywhere. Your adamant opposition to Christianity has been born of human error, not God's.
"Assuming one has not studied seems a little arrogant." I have been reading your posts, and I can read the scientific errors, so either you are baiting us with deliberate foolishness, or you have limited scientific training.
MC, you said in some post that you are going to answer questions if they are posted. I did post a few, are you going to answer them or are you going to continue your monologue?
First: I never mentioned "wicca". You're getting so much opposition you're obviously confused.
Second: Of course you're not a Catholic. Nobody thought you were. More likely some fucking evangelist asshole.
God must hate people like you. With friends like you, who needs enemies?
According to Christians, religious people, if a person is doing "bad" things, it is blamed on evil influences. If a person is doing "good" things, it is blamed on God's influence. Why not take responsibility, good or bad, upon yourselves? That maybe you did wrong because you were a dipshit at some point. And maybe you did good because you drew strength from yourself. Faith and religion have never been a big part of my life, but I've always been good anyway. I've never gone off the deep end, done anything horrible, I've always treated others with respect and wanted only to be a good person, to do my best. And it wasn't because I was afraid of burning in hell. It just is. Some would try to point out that I am condemned for eternity for not being a devout Christian. Even though I have never done any of the "bad" things that actual Christians have done, who will enjoy the kingdom of peace and love in heaven forever. It just doesn't make any sense to me at all.
As before, I do respect anyone's right to feel however they want, whatever makes them happy. But I do think it is an "inner" issue. It is completely a personal choice. The only sour thing I feel compelled to say is that many, many times in these types of conversations, no matter where or when they occur, it has been my experience that Christians are very arrogant in their unshakable superiority over those who are not Christians. It is only a mind set, it is only an idea that you believe in. That's all. It doesn't make it the right way for everyone.
free always a pleasure to read your gentle posts, i thing you're right, do we need god to tell us what is right and wrong, i don't need god to tell me it's wrong to kill i rely on human instinct, that's it human instinct
Free, religion is a big excuse for many people since it allows them to not take responsibility.
Most religions are extremely arrogant about them being the only one that is correct. I personally don't lose any sweat over the idea that according to christians I will not go to heaven, since I will also not enter the paradise according to the muslims, or be reincarnated according hinduism and many other things various religions promise. But if you ask any of them the other are all wrong.
There are few gentle religions which put the human being and nature at their center rather than some god or gods. Even though these are usually very tolerant towards other religions they are seen as evil by the christians.
When it comes to matters of institutionalized/organized religion (especially the large numbers of individuals who purposefully cloak themselves within those beliefs, as if wrapping themselves a warm blanket of ignorance and stupidity and use it as an excuse to judge/inflict hurt upon their fellow human beings).....I DO find it impossible to be "objective". Take what our newest Resident Zealot said in his last post:
"Wicca: Originated in witchcraft, currently said to be about nature and follows many beliefs like humility, kindness, receiving back 3 times what you give out, all of it with out recognizing the author of those qualities, God, Jesus and The Holy Spirit. There is also a continuing practise in spells etc. all of which are forbidden by God in the Word."
I mean c'mon, Chaz. Read it closely. This yahoo comes out of the woodwork, and says "Oh no-no-no!! THEIR beliefs are black magic (which it's not) , or this-and-that, and are no damn good, because MY beliefs are what matters and is the RIGHT way to go...not THEIRS....which is WRONG."
In other words, HIS beliefs in HIS religion, which encompasses global deluges, parting seas, people strung up on wooden crosses, cities being wiped out with folks being turned into big stinking piles of Sifto Table salt, people sacrificing sons/daughters to to prove themselves to a "God", plagues, pestilences, threats of being cast down into lakes of fire/brimstone if he/we are BAD or do not accept some mysterious mythical figure as his/our "saviour", curses taking the form of snakes/locusts/bugs that no amount of Raid will get rid of, spirits which are "holy" that MUST be accepted, formers "angels" that were cast out of the penthouse who became "demons" and set up shop in the basement under the management of THE "Devil", dead folks rising out of their graves to ascend to said penthouse when the "Time" has come, walls of fire being cast down to bar enemy chariots from advancing..............
but this poor schmuck says "wiccanism" is not RIGHT.
You CAN see the humorous irony involved here, with this sad sack of human zealotry/ignorance/hate........can't you?
Slight correction here: Buddha is a documented historical figure that definitely existed. For Jesus it has not been possible so far to find historical evidence (the bible does not count here, it has been rewritten too many times and most of the original documents are lost or at least not yet located).
Most interestingly the two religious documents closely related to the bible (thora and quran) don't mention him and the Roman documents of that time don't mention him neither. And if you know what bureaucracy freaks the Romans have been that is strong evidence that the story in the bible is at least much overhyped.
But of course I am totally wrong since it is written in the bible and what is written in the bible is true since it written in the bible and the bible is the word of god which is proven since the bible says so.
Fathom this Mountainclimber and other procastinators of religion,
In olden days, the gods revealed themselves to man in many guises and we have Homer, for example, to make that clear. We haven't heard from any god in millenniums, is that because the gods died or the civilizations that believed in them died?
I can't help but wonder some times if it was some vanished civilization that posessed the correct religious beliefs that were the key to a so-called heaven and understanding the universe but they are now lost and that religion perished with them. All that is left is the wanna-bes of the past several millenia each espousing that theirs is the one true religion and they alone hold the key to heaven. Such crap is born of the mental midgetry that is behind all of the existing religions that plot and scheme their way to grab power and wealth by preying on the gullible and weak minded amongst humanity. All are proving to be nothing of what they claim to be. There isn't a religion today that has not participated in some form of violence against other humans or wreaked havoc upon those that believe differently from their system of belief. Some here say that they are of a faith that is tolerant and accepting of other beliefs. Perhaps you as an individual do not participate directly in violence per se but you cannot escape the fact that your adherence to your beliefs prop up and support a manifest of destructive actions, policies and practices against those that don't believe as you do. The Nazi scum of WW2 that worked as paper pushers and bean counters of the holocaust were just as guilty as those turning on the gas valves and pulling the triggers. Just following orders did not bar them from prosecution nor should it have. The manifest destiny folks of 19th century America that were the peaceful farmers and ranchers of the plains are equally guilty of the annihilation and destruction of numerous native cultures and civilizations only saving those that agreed to adopt the ways and religious beliefs of the conquerors.
The number of distinct religious beliefs held by the human species over the past million or so years of our presence on earth will never be truly known and many have vanished without a trace due to natural planetary convulsions (floods, eathquakes, tidal waves, volcanoes, mini ice age etc.), stupid mistakes of their own doing ( overuse of natural resources easter Island culture is a classic example) or by direct conflict from those of a different belief (ever constant warfare. over religion, culture and race). I am confident that many of those now perished beings that believed in their unknown to us religions thought that they alone were the people of the chosen faith. Maybe one of them was but we have no record and will probably never know. The possibilities of the human mind are like trying to count the stars in the universe. The possibility that one mind or one ancient tribe or that one civilization ancient or modern posesses the knowledge of the "correct" answers as to what is god or what makes the universe tick is the equivalent of reaching out for the answer as if it existed on just one of the stars in the universe. Chances of selecting that star with the answer are slim to none. Besides stars like planets and humans have a life, die, are disaggregated back to molecules and atoms and occasionally are reassembled into an infitesimal number of inorganic or organic possibilities. I delight in the possibility that some of my elements may one day be reassembled in a plant, tree or other life form or that some may be locked up for the remaining life of the planet in a rock or some elemental gas in the atmosphere.
Science is about simple observation and measurement of that what is tangible before us. If done correctly, it provides information and answers to natural phenomena for which there is no previous understanding or it changes a previous misconception based on either poor science due to technical limitations or thinking constraints often linked to dogma like religious and cultural beliefs. Muslim clerics disavow evolution as vehemently as do the 2 Christian nutcases in the video clip. Both religions have the same gut reaction to ideas that challenge their dogma. Each new fact of science that goes against their dogmatic beliefs is perceived as a threat to their existence. The 2 christian nutcases in the video clip are wooses in their approach to the challenge of the fossils in the museum. I daresay that the muslim extremist resolution to this dilemma would be to simply destroy the fossils. The taliban used the buddah statues in Afghanistan as artillary target practice to eradicate evidence of a different set of dogmatic principles. Good science is testable and is often in an evolving state of flux as new evidence is uncovered or new technologies for conducting observations and measuring are discovered. I am and remain a free thinker. I am content with myself as I am. I seek no forgiveness, prayer or further espousal of your beliefs from you or any other hypocrits among humanity.
Believe whatever you desire. Live and let live! Freedom & Liberty not In God We Trust.
If by chance some of the ancients had it right won't all of you be surprised -- all flavors of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Taoists and the lot -- when you are greeted by Pluto poking them in the ass with a sharp stick on the way to the underworld.
Pert neer there!
He he, or one of our true believers in christianity dies to find out that he ends up a lowly table servant in Stovokor, working alongside of Jesus who constantly whines: "Hey man, back then I thought it a great idea that my dad would be running the show, how could I know these damned Klingons were right?"
Well, whattaya know? Seems a couple of WICCANS who were American war vets who died in battle, are getting slagged and dissed by the good "christians" within the U.S. government (including President George Ah-Talk-Tuh-Jayzus Bush), and their widows are getting a hard time about it, even after the ultimate sacrifice these soldiers made.
Now....Mountainboy.....you can feel free to shut your goddamn hypocritical trap, and come back when you actually KNOW, or are EDOOCATED somewhat, about ANYTHING.
The land of the free, as long as you happen to be christian and not some pagan...
I definitely like the approach of the Dalai Lama a lot more, when he visited Germany a few weeks ago he said: "If you have a religion that is fine, if you don't have a religion that is fine too"
Likely not another 1000 years will be sufficient to get kind of tolerance into the bible jockeys.
And PLEASE do not EVER again say you enlisted in the U.S. Marine Corps. I have much respect for that branch of service, and to think a no-mind dork like YOU wore that proud uniform, actually makes me sick to my guts.
Good evening.
I have been watching this conversation from my cloud, and wish to make one or two observations.
1). I am the creator of the universe and all in it.
2). I did not create it in six days. That was a lie made up by idiots.
3). I am omnipotent but don't really give a fuck about humans.
4). You're all going to die and there's nothing after life.
5). I fuck nuns while they are asleep.
6). Nobody can do anything about it.
So, carry on your futile argument. None of it matters.
In the end times they will say, "Where is this God of yours,...."
PS: Paleo: It's "prognosticators", of religion". (no offense).
" Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." "By it men of old gained a testimony."Hebrews 11:1-2. History is there people. It is not fairy tales.
In your day of trouble, (God forbid), please turn to Jesus, God, The Holy Spirit. He is an ever present help in time of trouble.
PPS: Canuck: I'm sure there is plenty of discusting stuff out there on vid. Haven't seen vid but I'll take your word for it, this time. Balance is hard to come by. Christ has been embarrassed, even shamed, more than once.
Has any one of you ever met a Christian you liked?
"Jesus is the expressed image of God". Forget all the bad experiences "Christians" or religion has given you and focus on examining Him, and Him alone.
Get a New American Standard Bible and start in "little" John I, II and III. It is only like three or four pages. If you are still curious, read the New Testament. It is the Old Testament revealed. That which was spoken of (and recorded) over the centuries, comes to pass in the New Testament.
I wish you all well. God (The Living God) loves you. When the time comes I hope you'll be glad He died for you.
If it is of any consequence, I am sorry you all have had such unfortunate experience with Christians.
Many of you have said things about me, threatened me and used words I have avoided for many years. I truely believe it grieves and saddens The Lord to see you in such a bitter and angry state. He does care about you.
He also knows I forgive you. I have learned that hurting people hurt others. Rejected people reject others. People that have been treated with hatred, hate others. I have been loved. I have been loved like I never thought it was possible. So for Him and in His name, ....I love you all.
And thank you for once again hiding behind the concept of "the Boogeyman, as opposed to answering my points above, and perhaps...MAYBE....admitting that you're far too ensconced in this superstition to use the power of HUMAN reasoning to debate or argue a point.
I'm actually not that profane in real life, but considering how folks like yourself slip back into the "I'm-Plugging-My-Ears-And-Not-Listening-Anymore-Or-To-Anyone Mode.......I'm sure you can comprehend why.
Don't bother saving me a seat at The Rapture.
I'm planning on spending the WHOLE day interviewing the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders.
P.S.
Some years back, I was in a stage production, wherein I played the role of Bill Zeebub, who meets "God" (J. Hova) at an earthbound restaurant for a business lunch.
Guess what?
I won the award for Best Lead Actor for my portrayal.
Seriously.
I guess there might some cosmic poetry at work after all, huh?
I will be LEFT BEHIND! (imagine that with a large echo)
However to ease my pain of being left on a earth without any Evangelicals, I have purchased a large supply of Rapture-Pop popcorn, and a comfy lawn chair for the final event.
MC,
Last reply to you as you seem to have finally exhausted yourself in this thread.
One of my closest friends and colleagues is a very devout christian as you espouse to be. I have heard from him over the years, many of the same arguments and "you are forgiven by me for being wrong", tiresome and moralizing lectures. We argue constantly and we both push one anothers buttons. In spite of our vast differences we continue to get along for 20 years and occasionally socialize on neutral territory related to work endeavors and social gatherings amongst our colleagues. As one would expect under the current social climate in our country we have vastly different politics and we fuss and argue that as well. Without these conversations the workplace would be far less of an intellectually stimulating environment. We have never felt the need to threaten one another or launch attacks toward each other. We just argue and let it go at that, otherwise the drudgery of earning a living would be just way too boring. The respect that is present is because we have more in common than the differences of opinion we share regarding religion and politics.
We are both hard workers and have both achieved recognition for many successes by our employer and colleagues. We occasinally do collaborative projects and research together and the varying views and perspectives between us often lead to projects that are well received and noted for balance and appeal to a broad range of interests. We are both family men raising children and our essential values of providing for a child centered home are the same. We value the promise of education for our children and we both are intent on their upbringing being one of meaningful and enriching experiences including museums, art galleries, cultural events, world travel, nature experiences, sports leagues and yes even church. His go to a christian church and mine attend an ethical culture society church if church is the correct term. So my kids learn about all the religions and non-religions or the philosophy of free thinking. I am confident that his children will become christian. Mine will become whatever they choose. I will not compel or force a religious belief or non-belief upon them and later as adults, should either of them choose a particular faith or a path of free thinking I will honor their right to do as they please. At this juncture both children are leaning towards the free thinking side and with no wonder since both I and my wife are of that ilk. Regardless, the point is, children often adopt the religious or non-religious views of their parents but all too often, parents as far as religion is concerned will only expose their children to one view. Would you expose your children let alone yourself to the other world religions and consider the liklihood of their validity to be on even ground with yours? One child is very interested in psychology and the other in mathematics and chemistry. My sense of where they are now is that they are very good at listening to others and their expression of differing views and capable of carrying on a dialogue without feeling threatened nor will they respond to other opposing views with threats or intimidation. They have coping skills for tolerance and the understanding of respect for differing views. I don't believe that they like myself will view themselves as being morally superior and thus able to pass judgement or offer their "forgiveness" of others for being of the so called wrong belief. To them so far and to me there is no right or wrong belief. So I don't need you to forgive me as you feel compelled to do during your last homily. There is no proof that you are morally superior to anyone on this thread even if you think you are. Keep it to yourself. Stop trying to have the last utterance that is meant to qualify you as one that is superior to all others. Have your faith, just keep it too yourself and amongst other like minded people. Who annointed you to go forth to be superior amongst the rest of us by forgiving those that disagree with your belief. That is the behavior of a self-rightous and indignant child not the behavior of an understanding, openminded and caring adult. I am nearly 60 years old and have a lifetime of experience with the neer do wells among humanity. What I hear from the likes of you today is no different from what I heard from those that preceded you when I was a child. Be what you want, just keep it too yourself. If it gives you comfort to feel superior, fine, but again, keep it to yourself.
A few years ago, I faced a life threatening experience that was medical related. My christian friend said that he prayed for me and that when I was recovered assuming that I recover, I should thank god. Well as it happens, I thought it a better path to research both hospitals and surgeons and to examine their statistics for success in such matters. It was medical science and the skill of the surgeon for whom I am grateful. It is my own perseverance and that of my wife to have the fortitude to conduct the research to have the greatest understanding that science had to offer regarding the affliction and to make intelligent decisions in choosing surgeon, hospital and post operative therapies that led to saving my life.
In another case my niece and nephew were childless and wanted to be parents but were unsuccessful. Their christian minister repeatedly told them it was gods will. My mother-in-law twice paid for invitro fertilization. The minister insisted that if god wanted them to have a child, they could have a child the natural way if they just kept praying and trying (10 years of tring but no success). Three weeks ago, their child was born as a consequence of the 2nd invitro. The minister now lays claim and says that the child is a miracle baby, a gift from god. The rest of us know again that it was science that made their having a child possible. In my earlier years these very methods of science were alluding to these possibilities but were all too often scorned at by people of faith as humans messing around in the realm of god and should not be practiced. Just like the pioneering research on stem cells and cloning of today that could do much to prolong life or have a longer lasting quality of life, science is again attacked by people of faith for treading into the territory of god. I am thankful to science for having ignored the dogma of faith and having been bold enough to tread where it has, otherwise, I would not be alive today nor would I have a grand nephew to watch as they grow up in this world and will probably as his parents become a christian.
Perhaps I am a procrastinator of religion. Do you think if I put off faith until the last moment before death and then suddenly proclaim belief that I can hedge my chances of an afterlife should there be one? Can you give me an idea of how many hours preceding death I will need to make my appeal to all of the known religions so that I might get it right with the one that will actually get me into the kingdom of god? Too much angst in that approach as one nears their last breath of life. I hope to pass onto death in comfort and at peace surrounded by family knowing that in time my molecules and atoms will be reassembled or aggregated into some other organic or inorganic complexity.
I've done no intentional direct harm to my fellow humans outside of a lifetime of creating organic and inorganic waste some becoming pollutants and I have been a member of a consumer society living at the top of the food chain in comfort and free from want. Doing so has probably led to some level of economic, social and environmental imbalance around the planet, but I was born unto this existence and I have educated myself to recognize my impacts and as such have strived to some degree to lessen my footprint. I have had a most fortunate existence and revel mostly in memories of having had a great journey free of major strife. I have been one lucky human being. PEACE TO EVERYONE!
Geez. What a lesson this is to anyone attempting to proseletyze on Glumbert.
Mountainclimber, you were performing without a net. I admire the depth of your faith, but you were re-doing the hoplessness that your faith met in the end days of your Redeemer. You may take some value from your effort as being a wish for a bettering of your audience. But your counter-posters managed to minimalize your thoughts on the same basis as your biblical predecessors...no proof. And added to that, a slam against you based on the well publicised perversions of too many of your faith-leaders.
Actually, that would be my faith leaders too. I have known so many priests, franciscans, jesuits, parish priests, and other orders...have NEVER witnessed anything but absolute conviction to their vows, their responsibilities, their committment to their missions. Never.
But enough have betrayed these goals as to put your faith (and mine) under a very unfogiving microscope. So you are being derided on their account, not yours.
Nice try.
There is a lesson here...don't preach on Glumbert. Just don't do it.
Practice your faith and do your good works either in person, or privately, but not on such an open forum as this. Your "scent" of vulnerability attracted a horde of predators that has held you accountable for all the sins of your faith leaders, and credited you with none of the goodness of your faith. It's a losing battle, at least here on Glumbert.
You seem to have retired from the scene whole....I wish you a rewarding life, and many friendships.
Nope, not accountable for the deeds of others, just for your own.
Religion, especially christianity, teaches that there is a higher power which takes at least part of the responsibility for your life. Why don't you take responsibility yourself?
bug.....what you said just doesn't make sense in view of how MC's views have been met with Glumbertarian retorts.
His posts were met with strong criticisms of his Catholicity, clearly based on the predations of a number of the priesthood on kids. He himself, I trust, is not of that ilk. Nor are the enormous numbers of Catholics who live their faith quietly, and effectively.
Being responsible - accountable...interesting concept...the Catholics might be an overboard leader in that notion. We have guilt (personal feelings of responsibility) over so many things we have lost count.
I think I'll now leave this thread. Being Catholic here is like posting a bullseye. Being Christian provides rings around the bullseye. Having faith in something beyond humanity rounds out the target.
Y'know, it's becoming less and less friendly here. Is it the newbies, or the oldies? Can't we get beyond our personal beliefs, and focus on our country, politics, and the Red Sox?
I mean, sheesh, let's get our priorities in order....eh? GO SOX.
He became fair game when he stopped discussing the video and began proselytizing his religion. One must be aware of their environment and act accordingly and with respect to others.
And yes, that applies to religion as well. Why? Because the 'Golden Rule' is not always correct.
-Well I would not urinate on my neighbors lawn, there is nothing wrong with urination, but there is a place and a time for it.
-If I find a kind of food I really like, and a restaurant that really like that serves that food nobody else cares! They don't want to hear about my highly personal opinions on the food I like and the place that serves it. They also get upset if I tell them that ONLY my taste in food is VALID, and only MY RESTAURANT is the place to eat it.
That would be a judgment from an arrogant viewpoint that I would be forcing onto others.
It is possible to write and speak about faith and religion without being a ass about it, but it requires a flexibility, and empathy that is so often missing in the religious mind.
Nefariousprior - as mentioned above, I am not sure what difference it makes if the silly quotes with the angry vengeful god come only from the Old Testament - Am I wrong or is the Book of Genesis kinda part of the old Testament too?. But since you asked, look at Deuteronomy
Chapter 13, verses :7-11. "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
13:7 [Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth;
13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. "
Yeah, that is right fucknuts, I was not lying or making up such a ridiculous claim - your Bible actually says this kind of nonsense. Your child talks about other gods, kill her. But I am glad the bible it is still a warm and comforting source of moral guidance for you. Or at least those portions that you Christians have not cast off as being clearly archaic or out of date. I thought this whole book was the holy word of god, so I am not sure how you Christians pick and choose which parts are gospel truth, and which are clearly primitive nonsense to be disregarded. I guess that is why you have to keep going to church all the time - keep up on those studies!
Look it up in your own bible if you doubt me. Funny, me an atheist, but I still probably have three bibles kicking around the house - kind of hard to avoid in North America. Unfortunately.
ahhh ignorance at its best as far as I can tell the males and females of species don't evolve separately in fact, they evolve at the same time because in humans ONE CHROMOSOME out of 46 decides gender difference ONE CHROMOSOME and if the fact that males and females are the SAME SPECIES, and evolve together, is too much for you to swallow my friend, then I do believe you have no right to question biology. and let us not forget, science is NOT a religion, because if it were, then it would have absolutely no factual backing to it it is not a matter of faith, but a matter of reason
but don't listen to me im just a 15 year old kid with a FRESH MIND growing up in a religious household and am open minded enough to tell the difference if you can convince me otherwise by all means I'll convert
ok, here's one for y'all. there is a god and the universe is just a petri dish. it doesn't really care about us any more then any other nerd cares about a highschool science project. there is no great enigma about why we're here, it just wants it's A .
im kinda just hoping that there is SOMETHING out there, but if there is, I doubt it's a christian god and i look at it more like the "watchmaker theory"
"God" made the world he let it run if there ever is a serious, serious problem he might intervene
If anybody deletes this they are a sadass. who cares who's wrong or right bout god and stuff? you live you die. end. think much as you like it makes no diffrence. thnk less drink more! ball chicks. sleep a lot.
annoy canuck.
Actually, bug, I think he'd been in for a real downer if he realized just how little a blip he is on my radar.
Podman:
Open up a school of "Writing Sensibly".....I'll be your first pupil. Seriously.
Chaz: I admire your sentiments re: our most recent apostle, but if you really think about it, the only folks around here who get a hard time about religion, are the ones who use it as a reason to espouse an "I'm better than you" mentality because of it, and in turn slag all others (including their faiths). YOU have come on to these threads, and said many times that you believe in God in your own way.....but have YOU ever gotten a hard time over it? Or sustained ridicule? Not that I ever saw, at any rate. Could it be because you don't use it as an excuse to act like a sanctimonious, pious sonofabitch? I mean, the few times you have brought it up, I sincerely respect your beliefs. No malice or ill-will from me or anyone else, for that matter. That's just my own observation. I'll go even further, and say that if more folks took an approcah to their religious beliefs as YOU do, then we might actually have a better world around us.
Any video clip dealing with politics, puppies or religion turn out threads to be longer than Fred Thompsons run at the presidency.....notice that?
Canuck, I agree. No one has ever given Chaz a hard time, and he is quite open about his feelings. (Chaz Rocks!) But he presents it in a way people can relate to, and respect. And he is not single minded about it. He has many other interests, many other thoughts to contribute, for a long time. Mountainclimber is a relative newcomer, at least I think he is. He has only had an opportunity to air his views on this one subject. We don't agree with him, and yes, I'm putting myself in that category too, but I can deal with his desire to want us to. I think religion is a delusion. But do I think I will ever convince a Christian of that? No. It's a waste of my time to try. You have more fortitude than I do! I've always been a middle of the road, peace keeping unit! I like it better that way, for my own personal benefit. (I'm a nervous sort!). But I admire strong convictions in others. I have my own strong convictions, but less able to express them.
C - You need no writing lessons from me. If I may be so bold as to paraphrase an American president "Your writing represents the better angels of our nature". I see it this way because you are not just a member of your society, but work to protect it from those who would divide and destroy it.
There is nothing wrong with being angry at those forces, because those forces are angry themselves, but refuse to express their true nature in a honest debate. They must obfuscate in a attempt to avoid the large overt moral conflicts they desire to impose an society at large.
Canuck - Free - your comments may just be the nicest things in my day today. Appreciate them.
Short story...went to a (Catholic) high school class reunion (my wife's) a bunch of years ago. Great folks, lots of reminiscenses (sp?). As part of the post-dinner arrangements, each of the class (but not the spouses) was invited to stand and sort of update everyone on how their lives had progressed since graduation...it was all in fun, and a lot of laughs. Among the last to stand was a woman who had been a close friend of my wife throughout grade school and high school. She proceeded to relate how she had found Jesus (remember, this was a Catholic school, the parish priest who'd run the school was among the attendants)...she railed on, never smiling, never warm, about how her live was now dedicated to relating to her Jesus, all the while, being punctuated by the "amens" of her husband (presumably also clinging to his personal Jesus). The silence following her preachy, superior exposition was deafening....the air was just sucked out of the room, and all frivolity died.
The thing was, it was not what she said (I have the answer...) that I reacted to, it was what she didn't say (...and YOU DO NOT!)
We all think we are doing the right things (mostly), and know when we are not, according to our own consciences. The lady in my story was not trying to share her "rightness", or her happiness in finding it (if indeed she was happy), she was trying to let everyone else know how wrong they were.
At least MC was trying to share what he sees as the best way to be....but the "I forgive you" position is an absolute turn-off to thinking people, as it implicitly delivers a message almost worse than my reunion lady ..."I have the answer, and YOU DON'T...and what's more, I graciously understand and willingly tolerate your ignorance...go in peace, poor soul".
Thing is, he's probably a better person than I am, and maybe better than some other of his critics, as well. I didn't like seeing him get his butt torn off, but, hey....this is Glumbert, not St. Thomas' Bible Class.
Agreed. MC might be a very nice fellow, but in my experience when someone does not talk TO me, but AT me, I and everyone else knows to send up the arrogance flag.
There is also a big difference between Religion and Faith. One is a multinational money machine and the other is personal and should be private.
IMHO a relationship with God does not and should not require buildings, cash, the congregation, preachers, books, or any material items of any kind.
BTW....Randal...I don't know the Old Testament very well at all, but there were no so-called "gospels" there. I used to know the New Testament pretty well, and there was no "Gospel of Thomas" there either.
Where is this gospel? Might it be among those referred to as "apocryphal"?
Wherever, I haven't heard of it much less read it. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are the gospels I'm familiar with....just wondering what new stories might be added to theirs.
Chaz, it is one of the apocryphal parts that were judged not fit for the bible at some point in time.
This is one of the reasons why I can not take the bible seriously. It was edited many times and actually did not even start out as a monolithic document. There are several versions of the bible, so which one is correct?
Spend some time learning about and reading from the writings of G. Ledyard Stebbins, an American botanist and geneticist who is widely regarded as one of the leading evolutionary biologists of the 20th century. I was fortunate enough to attend a lecture series he presented in the 1980's at the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History in Washington, DC. His series was titled Molecules to Man, Darwin to DNA. His lifetime of study and observation led to irrefutable evidence for evolution via natural selection involving a common terrestrial plant known as Pussytoes. His studies formed the core of the modern evolutionary synthesis and still provides the conceptual framework for research in plant evolutionary biology. Few later works dealing with the evolutionary systematics of plants have not been very deeply affected by Stebbins' work.
I dare say there are fewer holes in his lifetime achievement of study and observation of Evolutionary Theory than there are in any form of Creationist Theory...
You say, "In the end, Evolution IS a religion, if it even was real, there is no way you could prove it..." G. Ledyard Stebbins and countless other real scientists have proven it over and over again and unknowing, uneducated boobs spewing creationist qoutes without doing the difficult, critical reading and study necessary to have an opinion or worthy comment need to either refrain from such assinine statements or should alternatively exercise some intellectual curiosity to consider, study and read with an open mind the scientific evidence that is in existence that supports a growing body of knowledge that no longer makes evolution a theory but a fact.
"Science is organized common sense where many a beautiful theory was killed by an ugly fact." Thomas Huxley
He was Darwins pitbull that made mincemeat of the creationist attackers of C. Darwin in the 19th century. He reveled at the opportunity to use science to take apart the singleminded witless rantings of the clergy of his times. Read about his great debate with Wilberforce or read his lecture "On A Piece Of Chalk". Get some science history and some serious science study under your belt before making such arcane statements as though you speak with some authority. You'll do a better job making a point and or a convincing argument.
You further state "in the 10,000 years or so that people have been wandering the earth there is no way we could have measured any difference in the evolutionary process... " Maybe not, but facts as is evidenced by fossils indicate people (those capable of making tools) have been here for 3,000,000 years. So maybe an extra 2,990,000 years have given us the opportunity to do the measurements. Stebbins did is measurements in a few decades. You don't need vast periods of time to observe and measure evolution. You just need the mind, insight and species that has a relatively short evolutionary cycle to observe a process that is not a theory as it was 170 years ago but is today widely accepted as fact. Go to school and pay attention lad.
Oh, our creationist friends will point out that the dating methods are not exact. And when you have a 10% error margin on 3 million years it is well possible that earth is only 6,000 years old.
And of course you did not take into account that it is written in the bible and the bible is the word of god which is proven since the bible says so.
I was not referring to anyones opinions or positions. I have no problem with personal opinions.
Frankly some of the vomit being hurled in the form of directly personal name calling and the direct threats on my physical self pissed me off. The I forgive you was a sincere effort to relieve you of any unforgiveness on my part, BECAUSE, The Word says, if I don't forgive the sins of any man, not only are his sins not forgiven but neither are mine.
Because I am hoping for your best, I am compelled to make sure I do not hurt or hinder you from any possible spiritual awakening.
I was never speaking "at" you, and my understanding of my responsibility as a Christian is to be a friend and offer the same experience to others as I have been fortunate enough to have.
Paleo: Thank you for sharing your life with us. I was surprised by it. You did not speak in insulting terms to me and I was not thinking of you when saying that "I forgive you". You obviously are a studied individual. Kudos.
I have to say, I imagined our friend "Bill Ellzzzzzabub" (canuck) dressed in his red suit, twisting the tips of his handlebar mustache and waxing his go-tee, while cryptically smiling at your story. He said, " Humbling, Paleo.
" Very humbling. And sensible.
I salute you for your views, and have great respect and admiration for you (as I do towards many on these threads).
That is so unlike anything canuck said the entire time of this thread. "Still playing that part ?" You do deserve an award!
Paleo I know your position is fine for you, I respect that. But your position is also no threat to the darkness that is out there. The darkness loves it.
I don'y know if you identify with the term Humanist, it is just another term but your Christian friend might agree with your inclinations as being that. He might (I don't know him) truly be concerned for you. Whether he should be or not, it's nice to know somebody cares.
I appreciate your patience and consideration.
Lastly, don't anybody make the mistake of thinking my "appeals" or comments were meant to be exalting myself. I was lower than any of you and pretty damn selfish. I am thankful for the changes in my life and my understanding is to be willing to share The Way.
I am reading genome theory and looking forward to greater understanding of whats out there. PPS: I do believe in a pre-adamic race.
PS: lwboy: The NEW Testiment (will) takes care of all that "child killing stuff"
That's the second section of those bibles still kicking around.
Well, if truth be told, wiseguy.....I wore a black business suit for that role; carried a briefcase; white dress shirt; bright red tie with a half-windsor knot..........and a pair of bright red, ankle-high basketball sneakers, topped off with a black pair of shades, remiscent of the kind they wore in the film "The Matrix".
I'm happy to have destroyed yet another pre-concieved notion/stereotype you spewed.
I suppose you see "God" as an Old Man with a beard....right? Gimme a break.
Plus, my comments to paleo were quite sincere, and if you've been around any length of time, you'd know that this, too, is not unusual for me to do so. Fact of the matter is, is that I have a habit never suffering sanctimonious, superstitious fools lightly.....especially those who demean/degrade/negate the faiths of others, arrogantly and stupidly believing that THEIR "god"/religious faith is better than ANYONE ELSE'S "god"/religious faith.
Even your last post reeked of a zealot trying to justify his nonsense, while back-peddling at the same time.
I am very pleased that with all of the humans dying on the planet EVERY SINGLE DAY (millions of them even being innocent children) due to wars, famine, disease, starvation, pollution, etc.........that "God" had the time to pay attention to YOU, and straighten YOUR life around, because gosh-darnit....you're just SOOOOO much more important and smarter and are a PRIORITY.
Like....c'mon, man.
Give it a frakkin' rest already, ok? Instead of worrying about an Invisible Man in the sky, how 'bout you turn your attention towards the ALTRUISTIC betterment of YOUR fellow man. Wouldn't THAT be more noble? Look, you and I both know that I can go on and on posting links to items that show the complete lunacy of evangelical christians (both at the government AND citizenry levels)......but we know that won't change your mind in the slightest, right?
You have a very strong faith.
Kinda like the folks to threw a couple of planes at some buildings, y'know?
Boy, the world is such a BETTER place, with people who have concrete, inflexible religious commitments.....ain't it?
edgarsuit: John 1:1-18 "In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, The Word was God, .......the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. That's,..... according to the Holy Bible friend. Read it, there is more than I have written here.
canuck: OK right, compare Christians with Muslim extremists. Oh,...your talking about commitment,...right, I forgot.
Remember your first post on this thread? You kill people with your mouth! Because or your hardass mouth and inflexible (where have I heard that before) attitude about christians,...I dared you to ask God into your life. You couldn't even purceive of my intentions. You took it as a threat or some smart-ass poke at you.
I do actually believe if you really asked, dared, begged or however, requested God to come into your life in some way that you would recognize, ...that He would. In my mind, YES, because of my experience, it would be good for you or anyone else also. Maybe then you would not be the vomiting rech that I read in that first and later posts.
Crap man, it was almost funny. You come across with me like the Boogyman or the Devils right hand man, " ask me into YOUR life", "I'll cut off your balls" .... well what do you expect from a sincere believer. Did I hear the hatred? Oh Yeah. But I've heard that before so all it did was inspire an effort.
Throughout this thread you've just thrown up the oh so common smoke screens. "Your self-sanctimonious, better than us, looking down on us, stuff. Hey I walked into the room, maybe I said some stuff without clarifying it, sounded stupid, OK, my bad. But,...once this got going, and from the beginning, my motives were decent.
But FAR BE IT FROM ME,......to have any kind of a hope for you. I know,...you have not given me ANY privilege to want that, do that, or hope that,...for you. You are just fine the way you are! That would be correct EXCEPT you pointed all that crap at me, (and a couple of others). I know your sayin Dam right man,... I'm going to say what ever I want. Well THAT's obvious.
Why don't you get rid of YOUR preconceived notions! Oh you don't have to do that, you're RIGHT,.....
I'm going to tell "Grandfather" God on you! Right.... give Me a break, give ALL of us a break! Liked the High Tops though!
Why resent what God has done for me. Because then HE would exist! Oh now I get it! He must have you in His sights.
Whatever I have received (from God) is available to anyone who wants it! Oh but it fits your case if "he's special". Well you are right. I am special. I am one of those "all men" that He died for. You are too. It just doesn't mean anything to you yet.
It's not that I'm a zealot, I 'm just not letting you push me over.
By the way, I would appreciate hearing about what you have done for your fellow man lately.
Blowing them out of the etherworld with your mouth doesn''t count, although I'm sure you are at total peace about NOT tolerating them.
Hey, I love this verse. I think Paul said it. " Am I not your friend, because I tell you the truth." I promise you this. I've listened to every criticism and I will take each to heart and get some value from it.
(taking a deep breath here....counting to ten....exhale....drumming my fingers.....here we go....)
Listen:
Use your head, ok? I don't for one second think that YOU, personally, would be ready to throw a plane into any buildings; my whole point was that the ones who DID do that, were driven by an inflexable, theocratic belief that "Allah" would reward them in "Paradise" for killing a bunch of "infidels". This almost mirrors what "christians" have done to others over the last two thousand years (!) to other folks, based on their OWN brand of religious zeal. Get it? So, in that vein, both "fundamentalist christians" AND "extremist muslims" are simply just on opposite sides of the same coin, in terms of the particular COMMITMENT....to their rigid belief systems. Simple as that. And I think the rest of the world has pretty well had a bellyful of both teams, and are fed up with the crap from both sides. So maybe, in this context, you'll kind of appreciate my disdain for your "Rah!-Rah!-Rah!-We're-The-One-And-We're-Still-Havin'-Fun!" cheerleading mantra.
See, I always firmly believed that "religion", is a lot like alcohol: unless taken in moderation....you're in deep doo-doo. A moderate amount can make you lighten up; feel good; relax you; give you a sense of peace.......but a lot will fuck you up; become an addiction; make you do/say stupid things; and ultimately skew your sense of reality, until you reach the point where you've turned over all responsibility to a phantom in the sky....or blame a scary beast under the ground. Sounds silly...don't it? Sure it does. Think about it.
And as far as YOU having "hope" for ME...well...let me ask you this: if I suddenly said to you that I turned a new leaf, and turned to ANY belief OTHER than "christianity"....would YOU still say "That's great! You'll find peace and get to heaven! All the best to you!"......OR....are you gonna say/think "Well...ummm...that's fine...BUT....you aren't following MY religion, so you're STILL going for a swim in a lake of fire. Too bad; so sad. You ain't on the WINNING team...because you ain't on the RIGHT team." Well?
"In my mind, YES, because of my experience, it would be good for you or anyone else also"
I see.
Sooooo....if I one day decided to embark on a bank robbery spree, killing every teller who didn't co-operate because I PERSONALLY found it to be an ENRICHING EXPERIENCE....then ALL should follow it...right? Righty-O. Try it....you'll like it.
The only "notions" I have can best be summed up this way: I don't know if you TRULY get what I'm saying , but it's NOT peoples' personal religious beliefs or religion itself that I have a problem with....it's what people DO with it, and how they use it to come across with others. Usually, 80% of the time...it'll be something extreme and stupid. You're a great case-in-point: you piss, cry and moan about how I (and others) talk to/treat you on these threads; yet YOU got NO PROBLEM AT ALL demeaning, debasing, negating, ridiculing the religious beliefs of others.
Look, man: I don't like smarmy, smug, deluded zealots in ANY religious faith, ok? Can you get that at all? Are we on the same frequency? This is why I brought up the example of Wiccanism and Buddhism, off the cuff. Human deaths attributable to those religions: 0. Islam and Christianity: MILLIONS.
What is it about that simple concept that isn't sinking in with you??? Did you flunk math? Or do PATTERNS just blind you?
I would also hazard a guess, that in my years I HAVE done more for my fellow man, my community, etc........than YOU CAN DREAM ABOUT. It may not change the world, but I am satisfied with it, and I can sleep like a baby knowing I at least threw in my two-cents-worth, I even enjoy a modest bit of hero-worship from my kids and made an honest buck in the process.
As far as giving YOU advice goes.....trust me: I won't.
Something tells me, that unless I take on the image of a piece of burning bushes that talks...you ain't gonna listen. Not then. Not now. Not later.
Chaz, Bible. New Testament? please don't get sticky with me.LOL! Here, if you want to look at other texts that were omitted from the "new testament". The views of supposed witnesses to the above subject?
Look, man has done some pretty outrageous crap over the centuries. I think we can agree on that,....(amazing)
The conflict between the two religions is as old as the ages. The conflict itself is evidence of God.
It seems reasonable that things have changed as far as Christians and their "enforcement" policies,. Holding on to those ancient actions as being the M.O. of Christians, is rediculous. I know, Bosnia, and other places continue on. But in general, the Christian position is supposed to be love your fellow man, BE a friend, if, through being there for him, he sees something in you that he finds a need for, then you point him toward Christ as being the reason you are who you are.
I enjoy life at peace as well as the next guy. The problem is we are approaching a point in time that God said would arrive. Let's call it the evolution of His plan.
For you and I, let's agree, empty flapping over Jeeeezus, is just that, intolerable. BUT, there is a true and worthwhile effort out there. It doesn't demand it just offers. It does not demand because we know ONLY the Holy Spirit can draw you to HIM.
It really did bother me to have insulted you guys, until I realized what you were throwing back at me were the same old cliche's to discredit. Those things have applied at times but not much anymore. We find extremists in every aspect of life and we have the screw-ups, those who embarass the rest. What do we do, we understand that they DO NOT represent the bulk, the majority. We steady ourselves and get back at a balanced sincere effort, which often means making up the lost ground.
Try to get this, RELIGION has done the killing. Christianity has "evolved" to loving your fellow man. Christ came that we would have life and life more abundantly! I have simply been declaring that there really is "life" out there. Maybe you have gotten it right all of your life, OK, that's great. I didn't.
I am glad you remember that you,..threw the other beliefs into this discussion. I know these other beliefs are a means of finding peace as well as mine are. Have you ever wondered why it is people gravitate to finding a god? Even the concept that "there is no god " is replaced with " but there are grandchildren or my fellow man! If I serve him I will find peace. Well you will also find yourself emulating the very heart of Jesus. So why not consider or even accept the fact that there is a God shaped hole in everybody that will either get filled or it won't.
I accept the need in peoples hearts. I just see these other beliefs as counterfits, if you will allow me the liberty of discribing them that way. I really do not mean to make the effort to discredit them because it alienates the believing person. The opposite of my goal. If the was no God, then any belief would passify.
Look friend, the deaths happened because these two beliefs are at the leading edge of eternity. The conflict is about eternity. When the conflict finally ends, true peace will reign. Am I happy about this? No. Like for you and the rest of us, life can be good. Eternity has an unknown fearfulness to it. Yet, the One who's plan it is has given me peace about now and the future. Love my fellow man, do and not just say. Offer a hope that is eternal.
The love of your children has said more about you than anything else. Keep doing those good things and sleep well. Just consider that the part of you that resents all the crap in the world and wants better for the world, is in total agreement with "the Unknown God" as Paul described Him to the men on Mars hill. Even they knew, before Paul said a word, that there was more than their "other" gods could offer.
It is good to learn from each other. We might even have been friends.
God is glad over your peace. He's the Prince of Peace.
What a load of unmitigated, unsubstantiated, finger-in-the-arse crap!
Will you please just fuck off and leave rational, good people to debate things that really matter?
Mountainclimber - "The New Testament takes care of the child-killing stuff"?...So what does that say about the Old Testament? Is it to be ignored? Read only as it may be amended by way of the New Testament? Only those parts that are not in conflict with the New Testment apply? And if so, who makes up all these rules? Why is the Book of Genesis then at all relevant? (which is where this thread kind of began with the creationists and all).
So if you just want the New Testament, and can agree that the Old Testament with its angry, vengeful god was not really at all holy, and just written by some primitive so-called prophets, then why is there is any problem with recognizing that the Book of Genesis is also just as much fantasy, and basing your view of the world on it is totally illogical?
I'm going to take a chance here and insert a post that I didn't post. I saved it because actually, I didn't have peace about posting it. I created it after your initial post, that I just responded to.
It will come across as sarcastic at heart. I'll ask you now to please understand. Frankly I was still reeling from being "crusified" :-)
I believe you are asking a reasonable question, and didn't have to blow me to kingdom come with expletives to do it. Thanks for that.
Again, this was written before my decent conversation with canuck, of which I must say his post was clearly sincere. I hope he considered my response in the same light. What he did for you was open the door to a real heart felt discussion. Please,....remember I mean what I am saying but it has an edge on it. Eat the meat and spit out the bones OK?
God must really love you guys. He must not want you to have any excuses.
Just watchin your backs, ...Semper Fi
lwboy: It is unfortunate that you do not understand the concept of the word NEW, as in New Testament (Will). That's the second section of those bibles you still have.
Roman 3:21-31 "But now "apart" ... from the Law, the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation (satisfaction ) in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed (by us); 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
MEANING, In Jesus I am forgiven, because HE died (for me) to fulfill the Law OR (if I reject Christ) The Law stands, (as harsh as it is), and it has rule over me, or you. Whether we accept it or not. (After all, King's are like that.)
Since, ...as you implied, the laws are impossible to keep, I am doomed forever, unless I realize my need for a Savior. Of course if I'm forgiven, then I can forgive my little girl and then I don't have to KILL HER,.... give me a break.
The Law by it's nature created a need for a Savior. Yes, that was God's plan.
I know,... " OH man, I feel manipulated!!!!!" I'm sure you'll all let me know.
Well, it was also His plan for HIM to do the dying,.........and so those who recognize this, and appreciate it, and accept HIS death as payment for their sins, get to live forevvvvver. Got it? The word says He purchased us with a price,%u2026..His life, ( we see Him as Jesus).
His plan also proves an after-life. Even for Jesus, it was hard to give up life. Jesus struggle was leaving this life, his friends, the world which He had a relationship with. The word says He faced the challenge knowing there was a great reward awaiting Him. WE are His reward!
PS: Your Deut verses do not say, if your "child" "talks" about other gods, kill her !
It says," "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, "entice thee secretly", saying, "Let us go and serve other gods, "
Well,.....ah yeah, that is just a little different than your rendition of it. The accuracy does matter, yes?
His plans for eternity required harsh penalties, for the moment. They ( the Hebrews) in fact really had just been lead out of Egypt and 400 years of captivity. The captivity was real and is recorded history.
They saw the Red Sea parted. The God of Abraham Jacob and Issac was a fierce power and quite real. Still is. God also knew there would be people that would RUN to other beliefs, misleading His people, because of all kinds of foolish reasons. Like, THEY get to be god! or, THEY are the source of all goodness, or TREES are god, or COWS are God or THERE IS NO%u2026.... well !!!! Imagine that..... !
Remember, He already had to destroy everyone (almost) once! I think most of you scientists recognize the event called the %u201CFlood%u201D. I%u2019m honestly not sure about your position.
I%u2019m NOT preaching, Just thought you'd appreciate the accuracy, as well as the new found truth!
Maybe now God doesn't look so bad. :-) I'm sure He would welcome a new believer. :-0 Come on now don't get mad. I haven't come back, I'm just visiting. The view is great from up here!
So lwboy, I'm back now. The two books cannot and do not need to be separated. One book documents events and statements made by men recognized in Hebrew history as credible men, including Soloman, considered the wisest man to ever live. The other book, records the fulfillment of events spoken of as being in the future, by those men in the OT. The odds of even 8 of those prophesies coming true in one mans life, (Jesus) is 1 in 1,ooo,ooo,ooo,ooo,ooo. There were 41 referring directly to Him, that were fulfilled.
Are you ever feeling silly when sying things like that? Do you ever have the feeling that it is all bullshit?
Have you ever read any book besides the bible and the phone book?
Have you ever cared to question the credibility of your source of wisdom? I am sure you have not been alive at the time of Jesus, so did you study any historical sources about him?
Yes, if my daugher talks of other gods only, I don't have to kill her. Just if she entices me to serve other gods. Whatever that means. So, yeah, accuracy matters, particularly if you are the stonee and not the stoner. You make a valid point.
IF I get the rest of your point, because of Jesus, I can ignore what the Lord said in the Old Testament, and forgive my daughter for enticing wanting to serve other gods. Drop the stones. Or at least God can forgive her, and me, as long as I accept Jesus as our saviour, because of God's sacrifice of him and dying for our sins. Do I have that right?
So is the Old Testament, and ol' Deuteronomy not then totally irrelevant? I just still don't get why the Old Testament matters if the whole Jesus' love and giving his life for our reward stuff trumps these passages.
You believe Jesus loves you and died for you and you are blessed - great, if that makes you content and happy, I can't really knock it. Live and let live. But I am sure you must then believe that he really will still forgive you and love you if you never mention any of this stuff again, or if you decide the earth is more than 6000 years old, or that evolution happened. After all, he can apparently allow forgiveness for not killing your child for enticing you to serve other gods, so I am sure he could let it slide if you don't teach your child that there was some massive flood and all the animals were saved in an ark, and that Adam and Eve is a true accounting of how the human race was saved, or that God created the Earth in 6 days.
Those bibles are kicking around my house because I was raised Christian. 95% of everyone I know was raised Christian. You don't have to explain how the bible works to me, and the whole mythology of Jesus. I get it. But I reject it. With every fibre of my being and every logical thought I can muster.
The biggest beef I have with this video is the hypocrosy of these Christians. Jesus loves you. His existence proves God's plan and the after-life. He dies for us, so that we may live forever. But teach your children that the Old Testament stuff from Genesis is wrong, or that they should accept science and facts about the age of the earth or the theory of evolution and that stuff about love and forgiveness is just ignored, and you are cast as a blasphemer and speaking against God, and far from forgiveness you are giving up your chance at immortal life and redemption.
Well, which is it. Is God loving and forgiving, New Testament, and Jesus -reformed himself? Or is he still the pissed-off, tempermental sky-daddy of the Old Testament? You can't really have it both ways. Oh, unless you want to just say it is a matter of faith, and logic and reason do not come into it. If that is your reply, the discussion is over. I cannot argue with an idiot. They will bring the argument down to their level and then beat you with experience.
Mountain man - please can you provide me with the workings of those odds.
They just seem...well...too well rounded to be real.
Plus the other stuff you've said before has been shown to be false so I'm kinda left feeling there's not a whole load of substantiation to back your claims up.
As you can see, the folks hereabouts aren't gonna buy into what you're saying, any more than YOU will buy into what THEY are saying. I'm gonna go out ....and I mean WAY OUT...on a limb here, and let you in on something, even knowing I may cause many of my good colleagues here to arc an eyebrow or two at me over it.
Josef Stalin was a tyrant who, in some ways, even surpassed Adolph Hitler, in terms of sheer oppressive brutality, yet Stalins tyranny always seems to get glossed over (mostly, I think, because he was an "ally" during the war, and that's a section of history our respective governments try to shove into the closet; it's too unsavoury to openly admit). Anyways, having said that, there is ONE thing I am forced to agree with, pertaining to Stalins policies:
While he did not "ban religion" per se.....he simply decided to NOT allow it to be sanctioned or otherwise tolerated by the STATE. In other words, if you or your family were "religious", then fine; you practice/follow your faith (whatever it was) in the privacy of your OWN HOME. No churches. No huge gatherings. No state-paid religious holidays. In this way, he was able to declare the Soviet Union as being "officially atheist". The unemployment line for any priests, rabbis, preachers or any other shamans was quite frakkin' long, let me tell you. In other words....I'm sure they had to get a REAL job, that actually paid money.
It's just a cryin' shame we can't look at a guy like Stalin, and pick-and-choose one small thing from their style of government that actually might be worth considering, and discard the rest of the crap they did. I think the Russkies were onto something there.
Now, as far as myself goes, I can tell you that if I'm walking down the street and I see a person who's bleeding or hurt, or a dog in agony, or an elderly lady who fell down and broke her hip, or witness a murder and dive in to apprehend the perp (which has happened to me).....I can tell you in all honesty, that I do not need "God", or "a Saviour", " or any belief in a supernatural being.....to do and/or otherwise take the best action in those scenarios. No. All it takes is one thing, that many religious folks can't seem to dredge up on their own:
Humanity.
That isn't ANYTHING to do with a Man In The Sky. No sir.
That's just.....us.
Because "us"....is all we have left, at the end of the day.
Not a book of fairy tales; not floods; not fires; not burning bushes; not loaves and fish; not bolts of lightning; not winged creatures who play harps and sit on our shoulders, and no beasties with bad breath and pitch forks.
I respect their position, if you define name calling as a position. I think 5th grade was when I learned name calling was considered a valid arguement. Especially when submitted by the bully that couldn't cope on an intelligent basis.
Bug, worked on cattle farm, recognize bullshit pretty well.
" Can": (vs Can't)
My wife and I have had the priviledge of being invited to teach in Russia multiple times, since the doors opened to outsiders, over last 12 years or so. Yes, we taught in Bible College. We specialize in family counseling among other topics. No we did not go with some church tour group.
My question would be this, "Do you think Stalin's millions of murders were made easier for him, because he had NO moral compass? Were they made easier because, to the rest of the world, he "had an excuse" for being a killer of millions? I can hear the other countries now, " Yeah that Stalin is a crazy SOB, well, that's their problem they're atheists, so we better watch that guy."
If there is no God, we can do what ever we want. Why not?
So, yes, he got away with it.
I know people who's father was taken away in the middle of the night. I have seen the bible that was hidden in the floor boards that they each (child) was allowed to read briefly each night. Their description of the situation was that of total intolerance, that even being a Christian, could be lethal.
At the heart of the Russian Revolution was the desertion of the Russian Orthadox church from the people. The elite in government and society had a favor with the church that goes on to this day. This gave the church favor with them. The RO church managed to not be torn down, by playing ball with the government. It's the same today.
You go in a Russian Orthadox church today (in Russia) and it's more like a museum than anything else. Today, you see nobody smiling on the buses, maybe the youth, once in a while. The only place we saw people happy was in the contemporary churches we attended.
Your awareness of that which is within you, your humanity, your preparedness to do, what I think we would all call, "the right thing", is a very good example of social evolution.
I have worked with kids in a nearby Federal Housing project that had to be taught that their word was going to be honored. We played basketball every Sunday. Yeah, ...that was church. Loved it.
I had one rule. If you call "foul", we are going to take your word for it, ...period.
It was great. Before long, nobody was calling foul. Why, because they wanted their word to mean something. We placed a value on something and it became valuable. "I don't lie." was hidden in there too.
The very part of you that you claim is just humanity is the result of the evolving of a person, you, in a society that for a very long time and through several wars, came to believe that what is right is right. At the center of those beliefs was the Word, expressing perfection, which we could seek, with the expectation of God's help and forgivness along the way.
What we are seeing in todays society, is a moving away from those principles. Why? I think, because trouble has gone far from us.
Only recently 911, has trouble returned in a serious form. It was the same when WWII happened. Trouble came and we sought God. (I think the reason the bad guys are bold enough to attach us is because they are convinced we have forsaken the God of the Jews. The One that has beaten them over and over, against unbelievable odds.)
The very concept you all support with great fervor, evolution, has been occuring socially for thousands of years. Your sense of right and wrong came from our society's exposure to Christian principles. The 10 Commandments if you will.
The reason, and rightfully so, that you all look with distain on Christians and God, is because, like Stalin, some have decided that not having God in the picture is optional, whether on a personal basis or en mass. Our standards are changing. Bad is good, etc.
The result, no moral compass. We see stuff today, that we never would have seen even twenty years ago.
Remember this, we only know what we are taught, from the day we are born.
It was true of those guys on 911. It is true of me. It is true of all of us.
I was even taught right and still screwed up. I had to be refreshed in my thinking. It's an on-going process.
You have learned what you believe, from somewhere. Your "humanity" as good as it is, is not inherent in man.
Your position will be respected (by God), until someone or some situation motivates you to seek something more, or maybe help, for some reason.
Maybe you would consider my beliefs if I had fought with you while sharing my convictions, and died watching your back, in a foxhole.
" No greater love has a person than he lay down his life for a friend."
Your humanity is a great example of ,... love.
"God is love and everybody that loveth, knoweth God."
It will always be "us" until someone comes along and admits to you, it really wasn't me, ...it was Him, ... all the time.
We can only hope that your god is not going to tell you you have to kill someone. Since your moral compass is external, contained in an old book, you would likely not question if it was a genuine divine message or a chemical inbalance in your brain and just go for it.
Why in your opinion is christianity right and islam wrong? You are preaching to the same god, you both use the same text as basis for your holy books.
Yet a bit more name calling from a bully that can not cope with your intellect.
Constructs like extremist religious beliefs are a psychological magnet for the unguided mind. They are drawn not UP to a NEW purpose, but ACROSS to a the SAME purpose.
This life philosophy is one where a simple guiding principals are force fit into a complex world. The basis of the "quick fix", "life's shortcut", or the "simple answer" is right at hand and is backed by like minded members.
The moral compass of a misguided individual that is aligned to act with purpose against the society in which it dwells, will be driven to criminal acts against that society as proof of its value, and to the group. The group all think and act alike to achieve the greater purpose.
And it is just the same with extremist religion. In all aspects of psychometric rewards to the individual, crime and religion are identical.
Individuals of either group who engage with the common non-extremist thinking outside of their belief system will always feel like they are being abused by the those who are not members of their special society. This challenge is further affirmation of the "specialness" of purpose of their group.
I'm sorry for being late on this, I just got back from a trip EVOLUTION IS NOT A RELIGION you know why? religion is wholly based on FAITH there is no actual proof no physical proof and this, whether you are an atheist or a devout muslim, christian, jew, or hindu, you cannot deny
and also, as far as us only being able to know what we are taught then we would essentially all become the same person we would lose ourselves as humans in your ignorance, you fail to understand that the human mind can think on its own it can create its own thought it is how we philosophize, it is how we invent, it is how we analyze, it is how we create
you, mountainclimber, with your closedminded inwards thought and your one sided arguments you are left with nothing but your religion. for god sakes, sir, with all due respect do not let your religion engulf your humanity, your personality
and you cannot blame Stalin's atheism for what he did
there are millions more examples directly caused by religion look at the imams and the arabs, fighting their brothers to the last drop of blood
the historical battle between the Hindus and the Muslims
and in the greatest extreme were the atrocities committed in the name of christianity
the crusades the KKK and its deeds and even the holocaust were done with christianity as a DIRECT, CONFIRMED REASON i have no idea how i can get this into your head
atheism DOES NOT ensure chaos in fact, religion does more than anything for religion imposes a sense of superiority, a sense of priority over those of other religions because they are "savages" and "heathen" and do not deserve or cannot think like a proper human beingyour "humanity," as far as it goes in christianity, is only brought on by fear what good is an artificially magnanimous man? he has none in him, that's for sure
when religion uses fear to justify goodness it is no better than a totalitarian state, as it utilizes the same tactics. in addition, it essentially depraves the worshipers of their rights to free thought, to determine their own sense of morality
by all means, with everything im reading that you say, mr. mountain climber you must be a catholicand as far as 9/11 when it happened i was in fifth grade i looked at it, and i was saddened deeply but next month, the teacher brought it up again and i, only 10 years old looked up at him and said that these lives were tragically lost to a group of people who worked for their religion and nothing else and it was sad, it was horrendous beyond anything i'd ever experienced at that point in my life i lost two relatives in those burning towers but i said that in two years, no one would remember what had happened; what had gone on at ground zero two years later, our school didn't even set the flag at half masts, the administrators forgot.
this essentially religious war we fight today is even worse, sending unprepared soldiers with inadequate equipment into a purposeless, diplomatically entangling war
Anyone who studies history quickly realizes that extremism is always the root cause of mankind's suffering. This goes for greed, lust, power, and MOSTLY religion.
It is the most unfortunate aspect of the extremist mindset that it is unaware of its own imbalance. To that end when the imbalanced mind goes out into the world of balance it is challenged by those who see the fault.
However there is a tipping point, where the unbalanced mind can be tipped back to normal reasoning, or forced to a greater extreme. The journey to extremism is based on ego and greater purpose, and such individuals are dangerous.
To validate their extremist positions they will begin to recruit others to their cause using whatever tools they can.
This is because in the end they are extremists, only because they are lost in world of complexity and seek simple answers. It is easier to kill a man with with no soul (the unbeliever), and continue their group centered servitude to a idolatry that only they and their followers have the 'special mindset' to understand. The proof is that they can kill a better man with a small pistol, a airplane, fire, or even a plastic bag, and the man only died because he was faithless, and did not accept the group idolatry.
Extremism is always wrong, and is founded in humanity's baser instincts.
I think everyone with half a brain is agreed on this topic. It is a self evident truth that montainshitter and his like are morons.
Let's leave it there. We're not going to convince him. Scary.
Response, Q. 1 Have you ever heard " Love your neighbor as yourself, or " Pray for your enemies.", my God said to do those things, as part of is New Will for us. Why, because He did that for us. "Forgive them Father, they know not what they do."
Q. 2 Because we have the Messiah, Jesus. They have no way to heaven except to kill an unbeliever, (anyone who will not become a muslim).
They reject Jesus as The Messiah. For Christians, Jesus has made a way, (to eternal life) where there was no way. We certainly do not have to kill them to get there. I wish they felt the same.
Bug: you guys are all smarter than I am in intellectual horsepower. Good for you, really, I mean it. But we only know what we are taught. The lesson is, if you are trying to convince someone, me even, of your point, it is elementary that insulting them is NOT going to get er done! The insult becomes the focal point. Game wasted. OK? What good you may have intended, what right you may have expressed, ran smack into the wall you just built with your mouth. Thank you for illustrating a lesson learned in this post. I had to learn it too.
I know you guys are smart. That's why you are trying to figure this world out. Is it screwed up? Yes. Can it be changed, Yes. The Bible tells you how it will be changed.
MC, insult seems to be the only way to get any reaction from you, you did still not answer my very first question. But from your later posts I can extrapolate that all I would have gotten from you would have been creationist bullshit, which is something I view as a grave intellectual insult.
I had christian eduaction of the protestant variant in school until I took confirmation at age of 14 and could decide myself that I wanted a stop to that shit. Left the church soon after never to return, if I ever enter churches (or other ritual places) I never take any part in the rituals. Like many others here on Glumbert I don't suffer idiocy lightly.
The quarn is based on the old testament plus the teachings of Mohamed. Of course they reject Jesus, don't the christians reject Mohamed? But the Islam has one big advantage over christianity: Their prophet is a historically documented person, while your messiah is not. Neither the Jewish nor the Roman history has records of your saviour, so if he actually ever existed he was not as exciting as the bible claims.
Podman: Remember I asked earlier " Why is it people everywhere tend to gravitate to some god or belief system that brings them peace?"
The tendencey for the unguided mind to become guided is inherent in us. We are launched into a world with only initial levels of input, occuring while in-uterus. We learn to cope by our senses and the input we are given. For instance, " Die for Allah, die for Islam, you will receive 1000 virgins." You see very few of the older men giving it up for Allah. Just the unfortunate young people who have never been taught any alternatives, and who have raging hormones.
Your discussion makes me think of the militant extremists that have attached us. Yes, you are right a "broken" moral compass is no compass at all. Yes, it is obvious they feel special. They have been taught so!
Have I been taught that I am special? Only in the sense that I am loved and that entitles me to this responsibility, love others as I have been loved.
Equating the measurement of social reward involved with criminal acts and religious acts I'm sure is illustrated as we examine the militant muslims especially. Have Christians been guilty at times in history? Of course. Have things changed for the better? absolutely.
You know that for you your faith is certain, but you must also revise your (IMO) narrow viewpoint toward those who travel a different path.
There are many paths to God, and no man can judge on the basis of their personal belief which path is best for others, even if that path is through an opposing faith. Only God can judge such matters, and men of all faiths fail the to give onto God what is Gods alone.
"raging hormones" is a crude generalization and i have no idea how many people commenting this video study religion but i have extensively, and its only 72 virgins of unspecified gender (i don't know if there is any implication, there could be) however, it is absolutely true that they have been exposed to nothing else but that is the case in all religions, the children have been taught nothing else, and choose to follow their parents
and you can't possibly say that things will ever change for the better in religion religious leaders may reform, temporarily but their influence only strengthens the piety of others others who are extremists, who will lead in the future with an angry vengeance to establish their own religious dominance
you cannot disagree when i say that there are very many extremists, and not only will they always be present, but they will also generally rise to have a higher influence among those of their denomination
Not sure, but maybe the arabic word for virgin has an intrinsic gender and it gets lost in translation. In German there is only a female form for virgin for instance.
Noodle if you have not yet learned another language go for it ASAP it teaches you a lot about cultures and opens interesting insights.
The study of evolution is a science. What scares or troubles Christians is the "appearance" that "There is no God" is a hidden agenda. That is it in total. If scientists were saying , "We just want to know how God did it." Then most would feel better. The fabric of our society here in the US has been founded on Christian principles. Of course it is unnerving to consider that there might not be a God in heaven. What do we do, we start seeking our history, our data, to re-assure ourselves. So far we are confidant.
" In your ignorance" young man, you fail to remember we are all individuals raised in individual homes, going to schools all over the world, learning different social mores, learning different religions, therefore, behaving accordingly. Any sociologist will agree.
The mind has autonomic systems yes, but "thinking", other than what may occur while in a comatose state or a dream state, such as in reasoning or invention or philosophy, is a process the brain facilitates through memory storage, situation accessment, factor compilation and extrapolation. We all are the sumation of complex and unique learning experiences including values. We can change via additional input that we decide has greater value to us. Someone once said, "You have to reject the lie to make room for the truth." Or, you will have to reject what you thought was true to make room for The Truth.
It is very difficult for humanity to be engulfed. Even God has had difficulty "engulfing" us. That's why He had to come as a man. So we would know that He understands our plight, and has made provision for it.
Why haven't you killed someone,...like Stalin?
Standing in a garage does not make me a car. Don't think for a minute that Hitler represents Christianity. Nor does the KKK. These claims against Christians must be balanced with "Who" the person is involved in the killing.
MAN HAS A FREE WILL. That is our blessing and our curse.
We, by faith, must exercise our free will to choose God and His Son, Jesus.
Those other religions do not recognize Jesus. Some recognise Cows!!! Come on now folks.
I'm not into arm twisting and fear management. I told a bunch of people at a picnic for kids that, " We are not here because we love you. We don't really know you. You know that. "I love you" would be an empty phrase. "We are here because HE loved us!" That gives us to do this for HIM, and hopefully THAT will mean something sincere to you."
I can only imagine where you people have gotten all this stuff. Savages? Heathen? You may be talking about Muslims or others but not the God I know. Not real Christianity.
Please, there is more to God than you know.
You already have free thought. Stalin determined his own concept of morality. Millions died. I ask again, why have you not killed with impunity????
Why? Dare I answer? Could it be because something inside of you respects life, you just "know" it would not be right? You learned that. It has become a part of your humanity. It should be a part of it. Doing the right thing should be in you, to do!
Just don't take credit for it as being inherent in you as a human being. Do parents have to teach their kids to be bad? Nooooo.! You have been taught for the better. Be thankful.
It is an absolute abomination that the people at 911 and that event have been slipping away. When the war death tolls are announced on TV they never add in those 3000 souls. Wrong wrong wrong.
The correct scientific question is: Is there a god?
The answer is: So far there is no evidence for any god.
Though that question is irrelevant in the scope of evolution theory. Evolution works fine even if there is a creator at the starting point. Even the beginning of life works fine with or without a creator. As does planet formation, star formation etc., all the way down to the big bang.
I don't subscribe to the god concept, but if you are so inclined evolution and big bang are an even more impressive concept for creation. Rather than having a trickster god (Loki?) who creates a planet with fake fossils and wrong evidence for millions and millions of years of development (come on, how stupid do you have to be to think up such bullshit?) you can have a god who creates a universe that then runs like a clockwork to produce life and have it develop to sapience.
I said this before: Creationism is like the flat earth dogma, but while you can carry a flat earther to what he considers to be the rim of the disk and throw him over it, it is far harder to convince a creationist of evolution since it takes longer than a human life to directly observe its effects.
mountain climber, i have to give you kudos, you're very eloquent, and you seem to understand everything around you very well in spite of your piety
and i'm not stating that christianity caused the kkk or hitler, only that they used it as an excuse and by making that statement, you were being a hypocrite you said the exact same thing; that atheism harbors insensitivity i was just stating that it is present in both the religious and the nonreligious, the pious and the "heathen"
and you are doing EXACTLY as i said you would you criticized other religions placed them as below yourself and once you do that it opens the door for inhumanity and who are you to place the importance of the life of a human above the life of a cow? i'm no vegetarian, so call me a hypocrite, but i believe that all living entities have their natural rights to life, liberty, and happiness
additionally, most don't fear the lack of god, rather the lack of an afterlife the lack of a heaven you talk as if you are 100% sure of the presence of a heaven, and not so much the presence of a God which, if you ask me, should be the other way around
for we place too high an importance upon ourselves, one that is so severe that we do not realize that we are simply a digit, a figure, an insignificant number.
and I am not denying the presence of an overbearing deity, mind you, nor am i denying the presence of heaven, I am only stating that what you are putting forth is a common hope of all humansmay i quote "I can only imagine where you people have gotten all this stuff. Savages? Heathen? You may be talking about Muslims or others but not the God I know. Not real Christianity."
i was exaggerating for the purpose of the argument now you seem to be missing my point "real christianity" as you call it is YOUR christianity if everybody was a "real christian" like you i wouldn't give a damn what happens in the religious world but there are people in all religions that speak to atheists and members of other religions in such a condescending tone
and i was not arguing against christianity, against all religions in general while you are placing your religion above others, you must learn that they are all equal, as all humans are, and are born out of different culturesin addition, i think the notion that God is in the image of humans, although it would be nice, is just putting humans on a pedestal simply because we have greater thinking capacity does not mean we are more worthy of life
your argument essentially places those with developmental disabilities at a lower point than regular humans
and also, by fear i do not refer to firebrand preaching that was present in the first Great Awakening, rather the simple presence of hell itself telling people that there is a heaven and hell and you have to be a good boy to get into heaven and that going to hell makes you burn for eternity is fear enough you don't have to enforce anything in fact, i dont know my scriptures too well, but i do know that the bible tells people not to force their christianity onto others, simply to offer it as free choice
you are absolutely correct about the "in your ignorance" statement, MC it is true that your experiences shape how you think but all i am saying is that in your independent mind what you experience does not always lead to the same mental conclusion which makes us differ as humans if what you are saying were true, then life would be simple, all would agree, and diplomacy would be unneeded however, such is not the caseand thebug, i lied in my profile because i thought i might lose privileges on the site if i gave an age under 18
but i actually am 15, and you don't have to believe me, cause it won't affect me
If I tell a story to someone and then they tell it to even twenty others in turn the original content is usually so distorted as to be unrecognizable from the original tale. Now add editing for political effect, and control. Then add translating through 10 languages or so, and then add reprinting and editing for various designer religions of the time.
As per the standard practice of ANYONE who had sunk into their particular "religion", you have completely skimmed/glossed over/cherry-picked everything I've written (much as they do with "Le Bible", The "Quoran", etc.) as well as what OTHERS here have written, and in the process, managed to blithely miss the whole point. Devout religionists have a nasty history of repeatedly doing this. I'd say their consistancy rating on this handicap is damn well running near 100%.
I never said Stalin was a great guy, or that I favour him as a leader; I was even quite clear that I thought he rivaled Hitler in terms of how mnay deaths he's caused. What I DID say, however, was that as far as his one SPECIFIC stance on organized religion goes, I think we'd all be better off if we gave it serious consideration. Many, many of these religious nutjobs are into "home-schooling" their kids (as we've seen); well, fine. Now let them "home-faith" themselves. Keep whatever brand of superstitious zealotry they practice IN THEIR OWN HOMES. Period. I'm not talking about sending millions to their deaths, ok? Why do you (or they) need a frakkin' "church", anyways? Turn your own damn houses into "churches". Shit, I'd even make it a crime for these groups to publicly go out and actively seek "recruits" if I had it my way.
The State would be strictly neutral and NON-denominational in such matters.
If you want a government that's run/guided according to a religious doctrine, well how 'bout all the "God-fearin'" folks just pack up and move to a country that has an Ayatollah....or an Imam...or a Caliph?
If he were a bit more open minded he would even see that Islam is not that much different from christianity, though maybe even a little bit more backwards in the thinking. But except for the Jesus/Mohamed thing they are relatively similar which is not surprising since they both are spawned off the Jews. And the majority of the variations of either religion are non violent, it is mostly the extremist branches of either club that suck big time.
As for your wanting to restrict religion, I can understand the sentiment. Though such a thing is definitely out of question for any democratic country. If you start limiting what people are allowed to think you are just a short step away from a totalitarian state.
That is the tricky thing about a free society: You have to fight any enemies within the limits freedom and democracy or you are losing what freedom you have. A lesson the USA are going through in recent history...
All I'm advocating is the government telling people "Hey! Keep your religion in your own house! WE will not support/sanction/or govern according to IT."
Other than that, we keep things the way they are.
Religion can be (and is) a very dangerous commodity, and society in general has show that it's too irresponsible and too stupid to be trusted with it. There'll always be some idiots out there, who'll abuse it and use it to their own twisted ends, thereby making everyone elses life a living hell; in other words, to use your description.....it will breed "extremists".
Not worth it.
Shut them all down, and restrict them ALL from the public forums, and re-direct it into the privacy peoples' homes.
bug wrote: I don't subscribe to the god concept, but if you are so inclined evolution and big bang are an even more impressive concept for creation. Rather than having a trickster god (Loki?) who creates a planet with fake fossils and wrong evidence for millions and millions of years of development (come on, how stupid do you have to be to think up such bullshit?) you can have a god who creates a universe that then runs like a clockwork to produce life and have it develop to sapience.
very good Bug! That was something I'll try and burn to memory.
You guy's have been going at it pretty good, But I must say there is no evidence of MC breaking down as Stream would have and resorted to name calling!! Unless I missed something? Which I well might have. I believe making this one of the longest threads per quote on this site?
By the way, its not a theory the creationist present but more of an imbecilic brain fart that remains only because the very few people who subscribe to it are so much in fear of their own mortality!
I have read enough of these comments on this thread to form this opinion.
There is a power (call it what you will) out there amongst us, within us that is greater then ourselves.
It would serve civilization better if people of the earth would practice their spiritual beliefs to themselves and no demonstration of,or overwhelming emotions in public! Organized religion should be TAXED and then some!
I have stated my beliefs on this site before, so many know where I stand on these issues and my understanding of God And his children!
God likes the word fuck!! Why would I write that if it weren't true? Chaz give me a break!!LOLOL!!
Randal - I see money to be made. Using two of your posts, I think we should start sending out emails from Jesus asking for help dislodging 10.5 Million dollars from one of his overseas banks.
Well as I posted in the other thread I usually send them another version of the same thing from another scam. I thought about being creative in the reply, but then I thought I would get more.
There was a website (can't remember the URL) that listed funny things people did with scammers. Some did ask them to send photos with certain special features to verify their identity, there was a picture of a guy sitting there with a big fish on his head...
Because God doesn't! It's that simple. Its these people who are so afraid of life that like a child they will say anything then cover their ears and start babbling "I can't hear you, I can't hear you!!!" Their understanding og God was much less then those children they just Corrupted! They should be locked up for child abuse! No kidding.
I'm listing to this music Pod and its great- (day after day, Artie Shaw.)
Give your full name, address, phone number, social security number, blood type,...
Just kidding ;)
So what is your real age? And then please stay with that answer (you are ruining the age average here anyway, but obviously not the intellectual level). :)
Isn't it just grand and appropriate that the discussion that initially began over the outrageous misrepresentation of science as a religion has digressed into a few purveyors of dogmatic drivel behaving as though this thread of conversation is theirs.
I was initially drawn into this by the outrageous behavior demonstrated by the imbecile men purporting to teach in this video. I am an educator by profession. I teach earth science, ecology, environmental science, archaeology and biology. I work in K-12 education and I also teach at the local community college, a private college and a private university. I am a fossil collector and I provide family fossil field trips to introduce parents and children together to the real not made up world of earth science. I love extending a science based understanding and appreciation of the local geology and abundant fossil resources in the region where I live. I have reached thousands with the gospel of the fossils and evolution. It is my passion and I will continue to impart these truths and science until I die.
I frequently use local museum collections and exhibits as a starting or introductory point for both formal and informal educational classes and field trips. I have a rich library of professional papers and publications and a lengthy career replete with years of academic rigor and training that gives me the credibility to talk about the science behind fossils and earth science. Watching the two jokers in the video say what they do to the children on the museum tour reminds me of the Christian church belief in the geocentric theory of positioning of the planets and sun. Take a minute and read the translation of Galileo%u2019s Recantation of his heliocentric theory.
I, Galileo, son of the late Vincenzo Galilei, Florentine, aged seventy years, arraigned personally before this tribunal, and kneeling before you, Most Eminent and Reverend Lord Cardinals, Inquisitors-General against heretical depravity throughout the entire Christian commonwealth, having before my eyes and touching with my hands, the Holy Gospels, swear that I have always believed, do believe, and by God's help will in the future believe, all that is held, preached, and taught by the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. But whereas -- after an injunction had been judicially intimated to me by this Holy Office, to the effect that I must altogether abandon the false opinion that the sun is the center of the world and immovable, and that the earth is not the center of the world, and moves, and that I must not hold, defend, or teach in any way whatsoever, verbally or in writing, the said false doctrine, and after it had been notified to me that the said doctrine was contrary to Holy Scripture -- I wrote and printed a book in which I discuss this new doctrine already condemned, and adduce arguments of great cogency in its favor, without presenting any solution of these, and for this reason I have been pronounced by the Holy Office to be vehemently suspected of heresy, that is to say, of having held and believed that the Sun is the center of the world and immovable, and that the earth is not the center and moves:
Therefore, desiring to remove from the minds of your Eminences, and of all faithful Christians, this vehement suspicion, justly conceived against me, with sincere heart and unfeigned faith I abjure, curse, and detest the aforesaid errors and heresies, and generally every other error, heresy, and sect whatsoever contrary to the said Holy Church, and I swear that in the future I will never again say or assert, verbally or in writing, anything that might furnish occasion for a similar suspicion regarding me; but that should I know any heretic, or person suspected of heresy, I will denounce him to this Holy Office, or to the Inquisitor or Ordinary of the place where I may be. Further, I swear and promise to fulfill and observe in their integrity all penances that have been, or that shall be, imposed upon me by this Holy Office. And, in the event of my contravening, (which God forbid) any of these my promises and oaths, I submit myself to all the pains and penalties imposed and promulgated in the sacred canons and other constitutions, general and particular, against such delinquents. So help me God, and these His Holy Gospels, which I touch with my hands.
I, the said Galileo Galilei, have abjured, sworn, promised, and bound myself as above; and in witness of the truth thereof I have with my own hand subscribed the present document of my abjuration, and recited it word for word at Rome, in the Convent of Minerva, this twenty-second day of June, 1633.
I, Galileo Galilei, have abjured as above with my own hand.
MC, that is your new testament, forgiving church and its Renaissance Age with believers at work in the time of Galileo and oddly enough still at work today spreading lies to fit their interpretation of the scriptures. The absurdity of forcing this great human being to save his life by denying that which he knew was logically and observably correct is the all time classic refutation to the wisdom coming from those that claim they have answers by their understanding of scripture.
This quote from Pascal I believe best expresses you and the predicament of those that follow your faith or any other faith.
%u201CMan would fain be great and sees that he is little; would fain be happy and see that he is miserable; would fain be perfect and see that he is full of imperfections; would fain be the object of love and esteem of men, and sees that his faults merit only their aversion and contempt. The embarrassment wherin he finds himself produces in him the most unjust and criminal passions imaginable, for he conceives a mortal hatred against the truth which blames him and convinces him of his faults.%u201D
Mountain man (please...PLEASE preach elsewhere - there are many websites you can go to and the people there will probably pay you as well) it would appear your arguments are bereft of belief amongst Glumbertians.
Mountain Climber? Out there? Still waiting for a reply to my query. How do you reconcile the forgiving New Testament god with the angry vengeful one, and if he now forgives all because of the love of his son, why are so many Christians stuck on the old Testament creationism thing?
Has nobody worked out yet that trying to make this mountainshitter idiot see sense is a futile exercise? To be honest, he gives me the creeps. Please stop responding to him.
The whole point of the exercise is to make sure such bullshit does not go uncommented. And the remote hope that it provokes some people to have an original thought of their own.
I believe that our Earth is billions of years old. I believe it sits in a universe that is bigger than it is humanly possible to imagine. I know from reading that evolution has to be true, you can see species similarities and specifications every where you look.
However, I also believe that someone, or something has a hand in it.
Is it not possible, that our universe, and or Planet, were created, and that things have been allowed to play out? That we have evolved from single celled organisms, and may continue to evolve into who knows what? Just a thought.
The kind of crap in this video is pure indoctrination. Religion should not be about that. It should never be about 'thou shalt not' or about telling one group of people they are right or wrong, because the fact is, we do not,and may never, know for certain. Religion should be about faith in what you believe. It should be about tolerance and education. Religion (and education in general for that matter) should be about giving a child all sides of the story. It should enable the child to decide for him/herself what they do and don't believe, and be given the right to follow that belief, whether it is the same or contrary to the beliefs of the teacher. However, the child must be able to support their beliefs. "I believe this because...." or "I don't support that belief because..." and support their arguments with experiences and knowledge that they have gained.
No one has the right to turn around and say the other is wrong based purely on opinions. Do some research and then make up your mind. The people in this video, and some posters on this site are doing just that, and thatis anti-education, anti-religion, and plain ignorant.
By all means, support your views but back them up beyond quoting one book. A book of metaphors, written a long time after the events it discusses, and after the stories inside it were passed by word of mouth for so long!
That is my little rant. I hope I made some sense, and welcome all feed back (as long as it is well founded and intelligent!)
Bang on. Maybe there is some kind of being that had a hand in starting life or the universe - no one has any clue, so why not? But to say that it must have started in such and such a way, so don't eat meat on Fridays and if you are a woman cover yourself in public - pure foolishness that we should abandon like other archaic ideas such as human sacrifice, or stoning non-believers, or praying to the rain-god to end the drought.
The derelict instructors in the video and their supporters on this thread represent a mutant strain of public ignorance, anti-rationalism, and anti-intellectualism that has developed during the second half of the twentieth century and now threatens the future of American democracy. These cretins are at odds with America%u2019s heritage of enlightenment , reason and with modern knowledge and science. They are responsible for ways in which dumbness has been defined downward throughout American society%u2014on the political right and the left. The endemic anti-intellectual tendencies of our country have been exacerbated by a new species of semiconscious anti-rationalism, that is fed upon by a popular culture of video images and unremitting noise that leaves no room for contemplation or logic.
There is an anti-rational landscape extending from reality TV and entertainment videos for babies to a pseudo-intellectual universe of junk thinking. This kingdom of junk thought reaches from semiliterate blogs of all political persuasions and to institutions of so-called higher education. MC and his cohorts are purveyors of this junk though that offer discourse only in BC or biblically correct but dare not require students to obtain a thorough grounding in American and world history, science, and literature unless seen through the lens of BC. Throughout our culture, disdain for logic and evidence is fostered by the infotainment media from television to the Web; aggressive anti-rational religious fundamentalism; poor public education; and%u2014above all%u2014a lazy and credulous public increasingly unwilling or unable to distinguish between fact and opinion.
The current anti-rational government in Washington, DC with both parties feeling the necessity to espouse their Christian values in order to placate citizens for votes is the inevitable result of a crisis of memory and knowledge that has left many citizens and their elected officials without the intellectual toolkit needed for sound public policy and administration. The question is not why politicians lie to the public but why the public is receptive and passive when it hears the lies. MC and his cronies are well versed and practiced in the application of receptive and passive. They cherry pick the topics they will discuss and the questions they will respond to as is evidenced here. They try to be everyones friend and they love and forgive you for not being like them. I was raised by a mother that grew up as a child in Germany from 1926 - 1945. Her wisest advice to me as I grew up was to be suspect when evryone is in agreement because that it is time to watch out. This view of a kingdom of heaven where everyone is together and in everlasting bliss under the omnipotence of the all knowing must be a place where if one has a diverging thought it is time to watch your back. Is that what satan did? Had an original thought did he as to what the whole scenario was about? Excuse me MC, I forgot, there won't be any need for intellectualism in heaven. There will be no reason to think since the creator is there to do it for us. What does that sound like folks?
By viewing with outrage the video and reacting indignantly to the commentary of MC and his adherents is an exercise to face the painful truth about what our descent into intellectual laziness and our flight from reason have cost us as individuals and as a nation.
I suspect that we as a nation will have to reach a crisis unlike any we have faced in a long time before we once again get our bearing and reject junk thinking and get back to the realization that there is no real opposition between real THINKING and doing good for our nation.
It is almost unbelievable that so many dullards in the US buy into the creationist crap. A new Dark Age beckons - or may already be here for all I know. Scary, depressing and sick.
Why the most technologically advanced nation on earth should go for this a puzzle.
Too much junk food? Poo education? Celebrity TV? Fox? Stupid people otbreeding clever people? I don't know.
My advice is - travel widely, keep an open mind, admire genuine spiritual beliefs and customs, but don't listen to the fundamentalist lunatics anywhere.
It is a characteristic of religion that it is used by the believers and those who wish to manipulate the believers to express power onto a population. The innocent are at highest risk in these cycles of religious fueled depravity, that to them is the purging and cleansing of the world of the non-believers.
No other psychological aberration so closely cleaves to casual violence and torture to create a world of peace and love.
The USA now is only one step away from Argentina's dark past of Black Ford Falcons picking up those who were "enemies of the state", and torturing them, and their family to protect the Argentinian state from the dark forces that would spread fear, and restrict the peoples freedom.
No, Martin Lutter was doing the right thing at his time. He gave more control to the people, removing the middle man who used to have control over the interpretation. This was an important step in the development of what today is the western world.
In error are those who fail to make the next steps, or even took steps backwards.
Religion replaced superstition, superstition was the first attempt of humans to explain the phenomenons around them, to make sense of the world. Religion was the next step, implementing some kind of order that was ruling even kings.
Today we have laws and science, religion in comparison to that is merely superstition. Even though our understanding of the world is not complete it goes way, way, way beyond anything that jewish heretics could think up almost 2000 years ago.
If you think the answer is in the bible you did not understand the question.
Not really taking a shot at Martin Luther (even if he was also a pious ass), but at the Pandora's Box of biblical poison that entered the bloodstream of mankind. As you said many have stepped backwards, and perhaps the freedom of interpretation of a book filled with obtuse fables has gone too far.
We would have had all of the modern reality's that replace superstition even without ML. Everything in cycles of building and destruction, intelligence and ignorance, discovery and repression. It seems to be the human way forward.
Paleo: Your mothers experience is invaluable. She was a witness to manipulation on a scale beyond belief to the rest of the world. Upon investigation, history illuminates the plight of the German people. They were hurting in a very practical sense. They were open to a charismatic leader. When cloaking his plan in Christianity, they were inspired into a cataclismic action that destroyed them and much of the rest of the world. So,....who's to blaim. Christianity? A true grasp by Christ would have compelled them to question and many did. Many did not. Many were not allowed to.
For most, their circumstances, oculted authentic biblical guidance and so.........
Yes, her observation was obviously true, in that case, on a massive scale.
Was Christianity the cause? NO! It was only a tool of convenience, (because it does have power in peoples lives), used by unscrupulous, ruthless men.
People being in agreement formed our wonderful country. Some people, being in agreement, are trying to destroy it. Christ is not part of that.
Consider this. They crusified Christ, not the Pharasees. The system He was opposed to remained. The good He brought was left with a handful of men who had seen the miracles, had heard the life changing truths, had seen Him after His "death".
All, except John, (on the Isle of Patmos), were crusified or killed and went to their deaths believing, HOW?,...because they were beyond believing. They knew for a fact. They were witnesses. That,....makes the difference. I too have had a personal experience. It has made a difference.
Since then millions have joined. Groups have organized, like those in your Galileo article. So please consider this. Into pure water, some river water was poured. Imperfection right. Over time, God has stired things up. Like a centrafuge, trouble has precipitated out, the junk. Was it there, yes. Was it bad, yes. Did it need to go, yes. Did it? yes. Now pure water again, more river water is added, but the ratio has improved. The process starts over. That is what Christianity is like. To grow, it takes in the unclean and purifies it. Yet the process leaves all of it contaminated part of the time. But before the silt becomes to overwhelming, the trouble comes, the centifuge spins, the dirt can be separated.
There have been many fabulously intelligent men, and women, that have been misunderstood or discredited over the centuries. Did Christ and the true word make that mistake with Galileo? NO,...men did.
In your favor, and Galileo's, the church was involved in areas they really knew nothing about. I would even go so far as to say we are today, especially in light of those two guys in the vid.
It has been said that the reason Columbus knew (believed) the world was round was because he read in the Book of Job 26: 7-10
He (GOD) stretches out the north over empty space
And hangs the earth on nothing.
8 %u201CHe wraps up the waters in His clouds,
And the cloud does not burst under them.
9 %u201CHe obscures the face of the full moon
And spreads His cloud over it.
10 %u201CHe has inscribed a circle on the surface of the waters
At the boundary of light and darkness.
Inspiration at a time of absolute "scientific ? " belief that the world was flat. Of course he used Gold and riches, as the lure for his sponsor.
I said to lwboy earlier that sometimes we need to "Eat the meat and spit out the bones." You know I am a believer. I have spit out a lot of bones, but there has been enough nourishment to make me fairly healthy.
Is it possible that your wondeful achievements ,at looking into the past, might make it difficult to look into the future? Please I am not wanting to insult you in any way. I'm just asking. Please read on.
You excel at your passion. And it seems that history inspires your furvor against Christianity and the history is true! But as you examining the past, in reading someone elses work, doesn't their track record enter into your appraisal of their results? And what if a person of lesser reputation actually does "present" well. Does the work stand on it's own? I would guess probably more so because his rep is not to good. So i ask, consider the work Paleo. Forget the reputation. Consider the work.
What I am suggesting is, since you are as astute and capable as you are, why not spend some time studying the sources and data available on the sources that composed the Word. It may not be fossils but it is the past, way in the past.
There is a book called Science Speaks, by Moody Press, authored by Peter Stoner. Among much information, you will find a list of 41 different propheses, by several different Bible personalities, most of them existing hundreds of years apart, often hundreds of years before Jesus was born. It describes what was said of Him, by who, and where in the New Testiment it came to pass, including where he was born. which He could not have influenced. The odds are 100,000,000,000,000,000 to 1 against 8 of the phophesee's being true on ONE man, let alone 41.
Your ire against a situation in 1633 may be a legitimate example but remember, when it rains, the river carries a load, as it flows through the branches and over the rocks, it becomes drinkable again. There are a lot of us little rocks and branches trying to make it drinkable again. It seems a constant battle.
If there ever was a time in history where some pretty good water could be found, now is the time. AND, I'll make you a deal. I'll support your studies and encourage you and stay OUT of something I know little about, if you will consider just a small amount of time to search out the past, the evidence, the facts only, about the Bible and the information in it.
Today's scholars that attend to it are as honest,I believe, as you are. The study of the ancient languages actually gets more accurate over time. I have read where most consider the New American Standard Bible to be the most transliterate of them all.
Let the evidence speak for its self. ........please.
Maybe if we all compromise just a little we could work this out. Could we make a deal?
PS: Read Andromida and Milkyway galaxy's are on collision couse, 2 billion years from now. I'm packin up.....
He does not question the age of earth and evolution but seeks a way to force fit them with his religion. But he does the same mistake as the creationists in our video: He already knows the answer while he pretends to look for it.
Most of his text is extremely uninteresting and pathetic since he uses the bible as the single source of reference. The stuff about the prophecies is circular argumentation, of course the prophecies in the bible do correctly predict the later events in the bible. His probability calculations are arbitrary, he gives no reference how he gets to the individual probabilities to calculate his summary probability. My calculation of the probability of events predicted and described in the bible, according to the bible is 1.
Though some of his conclusions are interesting, like when he asks how people can expect faith to be strong if stupid things like the young earth are taught.
Regarding Nazi Germany: The catholic church did willingly cooperate and the protestant church did willingly look the other way. After all it was going against the killers of their messiah. Only some individuals did oppose what the Nazis did or did underground operations.
Flat Earth: This was never a scientific concept. The ancient Greek knew that the earth is no flat.
So if your beloved bible is the totally correct source of wisdom you portray it, then why are there apocryph texts and why are there no historical records of Jesus outside the bible, like in the Roman historic documents?
Okay, don't wantto offend anyone, but stumbled on this and thought it was funny, on topic :)
Top Ten Signs That You Are An Unquestioning Christian:
10- You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of your god.
9- You feel insulted and %u2018dehumanized%u2019 when scientists say that people evolved from lesser life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
8- You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Trinity god.
7- Your face turns purple when you hear of the %u2018atrocities%u2019 attributed to Allah, but you don%u2019t even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in %u2018Exodus%u2019 and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in %u2018Joshua%u2019%u2014including women, children, and animals!
6- You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about god sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
5- You are willing to spend your life looking for little loop-holes in the scientifically established age of the Earth (4.55 billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by pre-historic tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that the Earth is a couple of generations old!
4- You believe that the entire population of this planet wi th the exception of those who share your beliefs%u2014though excluding those in all rival sects%u2014will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet you consider your religion the most %u2018tolerant%u2019 and %u2018loving%u2019.
3- While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor, speaking in %u2018tongues,%u2019 may be all the evidence you need.
2- You define 0.01% as a %u201Chigh success rate%u201D when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God. 1- You actually know a lot less than many Atheists and Agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history%u2014but still call yourself a %u201CChristian.%u201D
I copy and pasted, and there were quotation marks and apostrophes on the original site. I think the format here doesn't recognise the html or something. I am no expert but those numbers are in place of punctuation.
The important stuff is in between all the gobbledygook, if you can decipher it!
MC seems to not want to answer the questions about the apocryphal books and gospels (unless that whole thing about contaminated water was his response). How about the one about whether or not God is the Ultimate Criminal, in that He knew all the misery and eternal suffering He was about to cause His own Creations by making them, yet went and did it anyway?
I am in awe of several posters on this site. Paleo, bug, canuck, noodlebrain and some others have shown that the Internet is not populated solely by name-calling flamethrowers, but by a few with brains that actually work. ( I can only hope to not embarrass myself and hide my ignorance better than most!)
I am still in agreement with Twain that Man is but one solitary impulse: to see to the contentment of his own spirit. In most that manifests as "doing good" to their fellow humans, and unfortunately, in a few, it means that they will seek gratification of their baser instincts above all else.
Religion can be comfort to those who quail in fear of their own mortality and provide some framework to codify in some way the awe that most feel on seeing a spectacular sunrise or waterfall or the calving of a glacier.
Do any have ALL the answers? No. Are bad things done in the names of whatever Gods? Yes. I guess my point is that we are all here, trying to fumble our way through Life, and some get a little too carried away with the thought that they, alone possess The Truth. To me it works out like this, love yourself, your neighbor and your family and try to leave the world a better place than you found it by pressing the limits of knowledge, but at the same time, keep your weapons handy to defend against those who would take your freedom to do those things as you see fit away. (Steps down from soapbox)
"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go." -- Oscar Wilde
Numerous times in history, Christians or other zealot faith groups have provided the template for any number of wars, genocidal actions and efforts to squelch truth and understanding. The inherent risk is that there remains today and always will be those among us that will use religion when convenient as a template to wreak havoc upon humanity or against nature it self.
My mothers Uncle in Germany, a Waffen SS Colonel, was raised in faith yet his convictions and principles that should have guided him in making moral decisions were compromised, extorted upon and caught up in the frenzy of racial superiority and extreme nationalism, all under the watchful eye of Christian Protestants and Catholic leaders in what was supposed to be the epitome of cultural superiority. On his tunic he wears the iron cross, a symbol of valor among the German military that is linked to the crusading knights from Germany against the Muslims during the crusades. His cap with its death head emblem is in complete contrast with the symbolism of the cross and beliefs you speak of, but to me the meaning is clear and real. Follow or die, believe or die, stand in the way, you die. I never got to meet him since he turned up MIA in the Battle of Leningrad. Had he survived, he may well have faced trial and been put to death for some atrocity. Rightfully so had that been the case, but I am sorry I never had the opportunity to pick at his brain to understand how and why he inevitably fell into the trappings of the 3rd Reich.
By contrast, my in-laws were wealthy Jews living in Krefeld, Germany. They were not practicing Jews but rather Ethical Culture or Atheists. That didn%u2019t matter to the Nazis. It was the blood and heritage that made the difference. They just barely escaped in late 1938. My father-in-law and other male relatives were rounded up on Kristallnacht like all Jewish men in Germany and taken to police headquarters. He was beaten severely with a length of rubber garden hose. Shortly afterwards the family fled with the help of a good man, a fellow Ethical Culture German of non-Jewish heritage. I saw these two men meet for their last time in the early 1980%u2019s on a trip to Germany with my wife and in-laws. A touching moment with two decent human beings, one certain to have died had he remained, the other willing to risk his life to save the life of another on principle and friendship which required no testament to faith at a time when those of purported faith turned their backs on the innocent and blameless.
On my fathers side I experienced a grandfather that was a Sunday School teacher for many years during the early twentieth century. On Saturdays and on other special occasions he donned his white robes and hood and marched with the Ku Klux Klan. His Klan marching days were over by the time I came onto the scene, but his participation as a member is the truth and was on occasion shamefully mentioned. I loved my Grandfather as any grandchild would. He was from a rural setting gave me the gift of nature by introducing me at a young age to both fishing and hunting as he had done for my father. Both men were uneducated (eighth grade %u2013 just enough to read and write) and racially prejudiced. It was education and the broadening of my learning and experience to learn from educated members of numerous ethnicities and cultures that gave me the tools to purge those prejudices and to break the cycle of passing those beliefs on to my own children. The church I attended as a youth was lily white so there was no room or openness for people of color at that time in history. Jim Crow was widely practiced and I still vividly recall %u201Cwhite only%u201D at beaches, restaurants, water fountains, businesses, bathrooms etc. It is by my own intellect and thirst for knowledge and truth that has brought me to the positions I have and hold. I don%u2019t need patronizing suggestions that I should consider one narrow set of prescriptive teachings when you fail to make a serious effort to extend your understanding of the world beyond your own limited views and what you call prescribed truths.
Of late, I have taken an interest in genealogy. To get some understanding of inherent traits that define who we are or where our potential could take us on our life%u2019s journey. Knowing who your ancestors are is not always a story that is very satisfying and sometimes downright embarrassing as I%u2019ve demonstrated several times. On my fathers mothers side, I have traced the family back to England and to descendents that arrived at the English colonies in Virginia. One outstanding member held office in the new colony and was remarked upon as being a devout believer. He is credited with having brought about the extermination of all of the savages that lived on the eastern shore side of Virginia thus making the land a hospitable place for more Christian brethren from England and other European cultures. Later, after settling the savage problem, he became a respectable businessman operating a fleet of ships that made routine voyages to the Caribbean Isles in order to transport slave labor up and down the east coast colonies. He made a fortune and became a citizen of distinction that followed his lineage for many generations. All were followers of the faith and all were perpetrators of plantation economics and capitalism that enslaved fellow humans for centuries. Some of these descendants later fought to preserve their way of life in the Civil War and subsequently imposed Jim Crow and terrorism to hold people down well into this century. All the time, they were true believers of the faith and of redemption. All the time, they are going to heaven and those they have stomped upon will not. Did they expect heaven to be segregated? Probably they did. Does heaven have societal classes? You would say no, so tell me why if one is a true believer, do they practice class separation in their lives?
In my neighborhood today, there is a community fight by a large group of Christian Churches that want to turn the last stand of county owned mature forest next to our retail district into an affordable housing community. That forest is adjacent to my immediate neighborhood of modest work force housing. The forest provides ecological services that give it far more value in protecting air, water and natural habitat for wildlife and such land is in short supply. My Community Association opposes this land use as do other nearby neighborhoods and the do-gooder Christians say we favor trees above people. We are not opposed to affordable housing at all. In fact we have even suggested alternate locations. One is on a county owned piece of property about two miles to the east adjacent to where no fewer than 4 of the six involved churches are located as well as most of their congregants. I even suggested that locating the housing there would place in close proximity, those people they are so inclined to help. Their community already has several neighborhood parks and natural areas so they would have no deficiency in this area by giving up the county parcel in their community. Needless to say, they are indignant about the suggestions and oppose any form of affordable housing in their upper class community.
It really matters not what the situation is or how trivial or cataclysmic it may be, people will use religion as a template to suggest some justifiable purpose to meet an end that always seems to involve trampling upon others.
No modern interpretation or reinterpretation of the meaning of the scriptures will eradicate human nature. Your suppositions and arguments suggest delusions of adequacy. You continue to try and fain friendship as though you have no enemies, but remember you are intensely disliked by those you claim here as friends. Not because of your being a person of faith but by your as yet unrecognized threat to my own way of existence and belief. It is not only that you are dull yourself; but you are the cause of dullness in others that is the threat. I don%u2019t personally plan to attend the funeral of religious belief, but I promise to send a nice letter saying I approved of it.
Very nice post Hombre! Particularly The story of the not so distant past.
Tho MC has not yet responded to my Q: about Thomas and his writings I find this part of your post an assumption
You wrote: No modern interpretation or reinterpretation of the meaning of the scriptures will eradicate human nature. Your suppositions and arguments suggest delusions of adequacy. You continue to try and fain friendship as though you have no enemies, but remember you are intensely disliked by those you claim here as friends. Not because of your being a person of faith but by your as yet unrecognized threat to my own way of existence and belief.
This would not pertain to someone like me, For I never see a threat from people such as MC. In fact I enjoy his post. I disagree with almost all he has written,but it doesn't require me to dislike him?
Now for the Idiots in the video above, They should be shot!! Simple:)
yeah, evolution has been pretty much proven and i think anyone who doesn't knows nothing about biology or anthropology or history( nothing really). stop being sheep. i laugh at this because most christians besides these young eath folks have given in to the fact that the earth is older that 6 thousand years.
The only thing that threatens you about me, is that by investigating, you would then find yourself compelled to give up your ingrained belief that NOTHING can help mankind. How pathetic. I guess evolution does have iot's short-falls. These are the same humans that should simply be kind to their neighbor, but will eventually crap on them. How pathetic.
Have I dis'd your line of work, your passion?
I bet my housing was more "work force" than yours. I do, now, live in more elite housing. Yes, my dull, WORK ETHIC and understanding of DIVERSIFICATION, has prospered me. And when people call my business that I have never met or sold to, who have never seen the advertising that I do NOT do, then, I give GOD thanks. Wow I am sure THAT is a threat.
I get on this thread and (yes, at my own risk) try to make up for the way those two guys blew it IN THE VID, by showing you all another side of Christianity, WHOA.....HOLD THE PHONE. We can't have that.
Your most recent post infers that I have somehow taken over this thread. Even though it's 8 or nine to 1. Any slight agreement with MC and you are livid.
I'll go away with some pleasure that, with a few suggestions,
the intellectual level was raised at least to some extent. Doubtful that pertains to the emotional level according to your take.
Noooo, it's not my faith, it's what it asks for. I haven't seen anyone sad over the kind of changes that happen. Yes, certain parts of you WILL disappear. In fact they are said to die,...actually.
You have a gift sir. You have intellectual prowess. Unfortunately, your confidence in your gift , your "self", leaves you on your own. You do pretty well, until "you" are threatened. The resistance to knowledge I (supposedly) resist, you are guilty of. And you, a teacher. Challenged no less by a dullard.
"What I threaten is the unthinkable possibility that you are wrong.
The very things you accuse me of, you are guiilty of. You fain intellectual openess and are not. You are interested in the "truth" of your science and yet simple history is beyond your consideration.
Eradicating human nature is not the plan. HE came to change our THINKING! Which would change our ACTIONS! Which would effect our EMOTIONS!
I and the rest of the dullards in your "work force" community would probably get along just fine. Great, I'll take them any time.
It appears you copied your Bio for this post? You have found other opportunity to share it. I am drawn to the understanding and respectful part of your comments.
I have not been plagued with the family history that you have. My relative was the main character in the movie "Lonesome Dove". He drove the first cattle drive, to Boseman Montana from Texas. Another, built the first skyscraper in Los Angeles. His last name was Story. Another said," Dam the torpedoes, full speed ahead." His name was Jones.
Your absense of experience disqualifies you from concluding MY suppositions are delusional. I speak from experience, along side millions of others. I am not faining anything. Friendship is often a one-way opportunity.
The fact is, I do offer friendship. Especially to those who be little me.
Unlike your poet, I AM, "above and not beneth, the head and not the tail, I am blessed going in and coming out, I am a child of God and a joint heir with Jesus, all of His promises are yes and amen for me." I am blessed in all that I put my hand to. My happiness does not depend on man.
Regarding your letter. I am sure HE will accept it,....with regret.
MC,
Quite the contrary, humans are entirely capable of helping each other as indicated by the fine German gentleman that assisted my father-in-laws family to escape Nazi Germany. His decency was not borne of religious belief or conviction but by ethical principles that arose from his education and understanding of human behavior.
I get along fine with my work force housing neighbors thank you very much! Even those that are Christians, Muslims, Jews, Bhuddists, Hindu, Animists, Atheists and a slew of other bizaare persuasions. We all tolerate one another and no one proselytizes. We are engaged in civic activism and practice live and let live. No anguish because we believe differently and no having to cope or put up with whiners that feel obligated to save us by suggesting their version of belief. You might take them but somehow I suspect they may not take you as seriously as you would think.
I am not plagued by my family history, it is what it is. I am intrigued by the social, economic and religious dynamics that made them what they were. That is why I continue my scholarship to understand more about their behavior and existence in the place and time where they lived. I am not accountable for what they did any more than you are accountable for your conquering plainsmen ancestors that destroyed the ecology of the plains to eradicate the buffalo in order to bring cattle ranching into prominence and to destroy the culture and lives of the Native Americans that lived there for several millenia. I stated earlier that I am comfortable with who I am and have been one lucky human being. No guilt for the actions of my ancestors and if your view is correct you will no doubt meet them in heaven since they were all believers of the word. Say hello for me, you will no doubt enjoy their company since they in their mind were following the lord as you do.
I am open intellectually to anything that is obervable and measurable period. Show me one physical and explainably measurable aspect of your beliefs that can be duplicated and I will pay attention. You cannot and that is your delemma and the cause for an increasingly astute society rejecting religious dogma in general.
You are a challenge only in that in my business I am running into people that have listened to you and other like minded people and think it is their duty to fill science texts with junk thought science or to take over school boards and allow Christian prayer in schools or deny gay youth or sexually active youth any sensible forums or teaching content that can help them cope with the challenges they face. Instead abstinence only and no way can homosexual or lesbian youth be acknowledged. The only perversion is the behavior of the totally clueless family value Christians. A few years ago I faced a dullard of an administrator that was assigned to provide a performance evaluation. I happened to be teaching a lesson on evolutionary classification of mammals and the content completely conformed to the State and County curriculum. The evaluation when presented later at a conference floored me in that I was marked down for teaching evolution to African American students and that evolution is regarded as a subtle form of racism by the African American community since it suggests a relationship between apes and humans. The evaluator administrator was African American, an acknowledged Christian and was an administrator whose prior teaching experience was in business education. The individual was scientifically clueless regarding curriculum, content etc. and ignored that the students responded favorably to the lesson and tested better in the post test instrument than they did in the pretest instrument. This dullard as do many, allowed their faith to get in the way of a person doing the job for which they were hired. If successful, countless numbers of students are relegated to the same dullard status. Needless to say, I would not sign or accept the evaluation and eventually prevailed upon challenging the evaluation. What a colassal waste of time. That is the challenge. Religious beliefs have no place in the science classroom or interfering in the running of public education in a diverse society.
It is you with whom I and others have touched a nerve. The cliche " east is east and west is west and never the twain shall meet" applies in this conversation. neither side will accept the views of the other and both sides will carry on with their own beliefs or non-beliefs.
The war over religion and non-belief and between religions will continue well into the future. History has proven thus far that religion will continue to divide human kind and will still bring conflict. The planet is convulsing but not because of some far fetched prophecy or end of days scenario. The imbalances created by competitive cultures, economies and religion and the sheer numbers of humanity all seeking a consumer lifestyle is the real danger to the planet. I have no doubt that global catastophes at some juncture in the next few hundred years will challenge our survival as a species. Given the present circumstances, I put more faith in the people of science to provide both the warnings and the template for solutions to correct that which has gone awry. Our future survival will depend on the wisdom of wise human beings (men and women) not belief in a god, deity or obscure religion.
I am troubled over the administrators action. Your conclusions may be totally correct although it seems possible the racial sensitivity played a greater part than his being a Christian. Still, you were there. I am glad you were able to reverse his assessment.
The buffalo having been destroyed created the need for beef. That is when my family got involved. Opportunity. Entreprenurism. He also ended up a philanthopist, donating much to the university in Boseman.
The destruction and the dealings with the American Indians was unfortunate and disgraceful.
Something measurable? " Life and death is in the power of the tongue".
Speak critically to a family member, really crush them verbally. Measure their reaction. Speak lovingly or in a complimentary way, measure that.
I have responded sharply a few times but tried to end up in a decent tone. The word says " A gentile word turns away rath."
I would venture to say, your last post was a much more reserved tone than your previous. I could be wrong but that seems measureable. Even some of the others seemed to tone it down, either because something I said, and I do mean only something, was true enough to bring a more thoughtful response or maybe my trying to deal with them in a decent way prompted decency in return. As a relationship counselor, these are measureable and duplicatable effects.
I read a report on Radiotronics? It said the questionable factor in that measuring tool was in the escape rate of helium for instance in granite. The study said many sceintists are concluding the earth to actually be 4000 to 14,000 years old. Evidentlly helium escapes freely from granite. If the earth is 1.5 billion years old, there should be no helium left in the granite. In tests, there was quite alot of helium still in the granite. ?
4 1/2 Billion years old to be precise! Now would you please be a sport and Show me a link to this part of your post....
MC Wrote: {I read a report on Radiotronics? It said the questionable factor in that measuring tool was in the escape rate of helium for instance in granite. The study said many sceintists are concluding the earth to actually be 4000 to 14,000 years old. Evidentlly helium escapes freely from granite. If the earth is 1.5 billion years old, there should be no helium left in the granite. In tests, there was quite alot of helium still in the granite. ? }
I'd really like to see who and what was said in the text you read, could you please direct or hook a link this way???
Radiodating. And the more helium is found in the rock the older it is. Helium is one of the end products of uranium and thorium decay. Because of the long half life of these elements the helium dating method can be used for long term dating of rock.
Though there is an uncertainty factor since helium easily diffuses through most materials, so the rock is usually dated too young. But that can be compensated by looking at other decay end products and their relative concentration.
Now if you are either completely imbecile or have an agenda to spread misinformation you can just communicate the helium diffusion and get to the conclusion that all helium must be gone from old rock. Which of course is bullshit since new helium is produced all the time.
I had a suspicion where the "useful" information might be coming from. And surprise, the source of unending wisdom which was constantly referenced by our dear friend streamlined has an article spreading yet more disinformation. Answersingenesis seems to be the common souce for all wisdom for our creationist friends.
MC, anyone who believes in, or supports the kind of shit spread by answersingenesis is either a complete idiot or perfect asshole. These guys are lying bastards that do not have a single fact straight. They take information out of context and present it totally wrong. They generate a smoke screen of wannabe scientific background, so people lacking the necessary education will think their presentation to be honest.
OK, Here we go again. MC you struggle so hard to make reality fit your belief that the planet is 6000 years old. You deny fossils, radiometric data, and you will probably deny this as well.
I'd like to ask you a question based in simple curiosity:
In YOUR OWN personal opinion, if you had to choose an example of any society in all of human civilization (be it ancient, recent or contemporary) that came the closest to what YOU would believe to be....the most efficient, productive, just and peaceful and its population reaped great rewards because of it and had a the most practical form of governance........which one would it be? Which one would get the nod from YOU? Given what you've said your background is, I'd be very interested in hearing your answer.
MC: Still no answer to the questions that randall and I posed. Hmm...cherry picking, anyone? The blooms are still falling from the trees in the Tidal Basin, so it's a little early in the year for that.
The legend of the Sacrificed/Resurrected God is as old as agriculture, if not older. It's a dressed up form of Sun (not SON) worship. I do stand in awe and feel rather small and insignificant when I see things like the Milky Way on a clear desert night or remeber the first time I held my kids, still bloody and wet from the womb. But it makes me feel empowered, too. There is humility in realizing just how small I am, but also in realizing how much impact I can have on the lives of my fellow humans. I do the "right" thing because it allows me to sleep at night, not because some petty "god" will cast me into a fiery pit for all eternity if I go astray. Selfish? Yes. Beneficial to others? I sincerely hope so.
Believe as you will, but don't cram it down my throat and call it friendship. I heard something that stays with me to this day, and maybe you have caught a glimpse of it to- "Religion is for those who are afraid of Hell, spirituality is for those who have been there and don't want to go back." The Hells of my own conscience are worse than any your "god" can throw me into.
canuck: interesting question. I'd like to hear paleo's answer too. I don't know enough about history to make an informed call on that. (Damn, I let my ignorance show!)
Canuck and others,
I truly can't say what society would be the best, however, I would like to believe that our own present society has the greatest chance of evolving to such a position should we not destroy ourselves first with all this internecine behavior over economics, politics, religion, racism and culture. Western civilization thus far by virtue of its consistent rejection of dogmatic beliefs grounded in all of the movements since the Dark Ages has triumphed with science and technology to know and understand more about our origins and place in the univers and to dispel most if not all of the myths that sustained the old orders.
The present dilemma is that many of the old order remnants still exist and they are entirely reactive and threatened both socially, politically and religiously by the world of modernity. Unfortunaltely, they have taken the blessings of the science developments of western civilization bestowed upon them and very effectively used them against us or are presently seeking to attain control of our most destructive forces yet known as a means to exert corecion, force and outright blackmail against western and freedom loving societies. The world is in a precarious position and how this plays out over the next couple of generations may decide our fate as a species. How can those enlightened by freedom, liberty and science prevail is the question. Reverting back to old order thinking and idolitry of junk thought is especially challenging. The voices of the old way of viewing the world have repeatedly been posted during this thread and will no doubt continue. Such actions are to be expected. A review of some of the recommended links by MC and others reveals nothing extraordinary. The same unprovable, non-data supported, suppositions fraught with error or scripture quotes as reason to believe make up their content. They have appealed to the American sense of fairness over and over suggesting that evolution is still a theory when it is now among the scientifically educated a irrefutable fact. That dullard appeal works on dull people including a few of the 08 Presidential candidates that like Ronald Reagan thought creation science had a place in the science curriculum. It has been the collective wisdom of our society today that has kept such junk thought out of the curriculum. The only place where this crap is taught is in private religious schools and home school networks as evidenced in the video. The christian right is threatened by our public education system and their reactive behavior has been to pull their students from public schools altogether or to attempt to co-opt public school didtricts as they have done in Kansas and Pennsylvania and elsewhere. Fortunately we have elected school boards and when such types sneak their way into positions of influence and power they have all been rejected by the next election cycle by those that want their children to have the skill sets to prosper in our society. I firmly believe that much of the attack on public education today is being orchestrated by these fundamentalists by saying that they too should get public money to support their institutions of dogmatic learning. If we ever have a congress that passes such a measure, public schools will indeed be threatened. I am a product of public schools all the way through the State University. I benefitted by the Great Society programs of the 1960's and was the first male on my fathers side of the family to both graduate high school let alone college and graduate school. Like I said, I am one lucky human being born in the right time and place to have been a beneficiary recipient of such an enlightened society spurred on by the promise of a frontier in space that has brought thecnical innovations that have increased our dissemination of knowledge to a level where I can potentially share thoughts and ideas with thousands. What a time to live in and what a promise for the future. No looking back to archaic beliefs at this juncture. As Ken Kesy once said and painted on the bus used by the Merry Pranksters ONWARD & FURTHER!
One of the best recent books is titled Collapse by Jared Diamond. He is an ornithologist by profession as well as a creative thinker with a great gift for writing. In his book, he methodically examines a range of societies around the world at different eras of history and using a combination of empirical knowledge and insightful perspectives provides a mesmerizing analysis of these cultures and or societies that examines the archaeological evidence for interpreting the collapse and demise of each one. The book is a compelling analytical read that rather pointedly shows consistencies in human behavior and the impact those behaviors had on economics, religion, ecology, and politics as each diverse group teetered on the verge of collapse. A segment of modern American society as it exists in ranching communities in Montana is included in his scrutiny of societal collapse. His expression of optimism on the face of it all is what sustains me in believing that we can with the new understandings brought to us through science and technology finally find our way out of the wilderness of unsustaining practices based on the dogma of past failed societies.
Quote Paleo: Western civilization thus far by virtue of its consistent rejection of dogmatic beliefs grounded in all of the movements since the Dark Ages has triumphed with science and technology to know and understand more about our origins and place in the univers and to dispel most if not all of the myths that sustained the old orders.
Western civilization????? Where do you live???? The land of Plymouth Rock, The Pilgrims, The American Revolution, The Constitution with laws established by the guiding hand of Christianity, WESTERN CIVILIZATION????
The rejection of dogmatic beliefs??? Those beliefs that have governed our country for 200 years, causing it to be one of the most powerful nations on earth. One of the most benevolent countries on earth?????? The same beliefs that are only now, (since 1963) are being stepped on and disparaged to the extent that your beloved technology has brought more garbage into our home, like porngraphy and child porn, that we can not even get it out lawfully? AND the killing of millions of babies is beyond belief. Oh yes, the morals that kept us from such outrageous waste of human life, are being pulverized by those who see that blessed soul saving governance as something out of the DARK AGES. YOU sir are bringing a dark age upon us that will steal your attention away from your beloved fossils and cause you to curse the very God who could save us all. Oh I forgot, you are already doing that.
Are you out of your mind????????????????????
Science and Technology have saved the world????? By exposing our real origins? You don't even grasp time, let alone our origin. Do you even understand how much code is written into the very DNA you have? Your library couldn't contain the books it would take to print it.
It was all an accident!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh and by the way, code is no good if there is no system to translate it into REALITY. OH yeah, THAT was an accident too! That was one hell of a soup, NOBODY mixed up.
You talk about the West and then the eastern world and their potential danger. The West has been your haven, BECAUSE, Christianity has compelled us to treat our fellow man right, equally, as well as in many other scriptural ways. Oh yeah, I remember now, Those ways that came from the Dark Ages.
Our country has become vulnerable because of the liberal, I KNOW BETTER, way of living. Anything goes, because we are enlightened. MAN, you are in the dark. The condition of our country proves it. Well, the Romans thought the same thing. Liberal thought brought them down.
If anything our continued study of Christianity has forced an evolution because its core is being exposed, bringing about a more authentic and true doctrine, a way to live that lives up to it's original purity.
By it, I can live with you and be friends. If you are not open to it, you will never know it concerned me. I leave you alone and just live it as your neighbor. PASSIVE, witnessing. NON-agressive. Still, I'm exhibiting the things you espouse as good in your life. The difference is I don't have to take credit for it. I know better.
I likeed what one fellow said, " His conscience had seen more hell than God could ever show him." OK, thats good. And by the way, Christians do not worry about going to hell. We're covered. We choose the correct path because we were loved when we were not lovable. NOT because we are fearful.
You talk about the bad guys, in the East. YOU are trying to do the same thing they are. Kill the Christians, (by killing their way of life). Well let's kill the muslims too. AND, while we ar at it, THE JEEEEWS began this whole mess, let's kill them too.
I was hesitant to make this observation but, because your minions bowed to your great wisdom and "Asked your grace a question", you have tripped over your own need to demonstrate intellectual superiority and have over-played your cards. You have shown us your mentality. "Superiority" lives. all else dies. It hinders us from becoming better, more perfect, more ideal. WE can save the world! We may have to use science and technology to eliminate the enemy but that's OK, WE'RE superior. After all, those tools PROVED there is no creator, well as far as we're concerned!
If the PROOF were irrefutable, Christianity would have heard the PROOF by now, BECAUSE, you guys would have wasted NO TIME in letting the world know.
How have these archaic beliefs kept you from becoming what you are?. OH wait a minute, those archaic beliefs never WERE in your life. You've gotten here all on your own. I knew that..................
Liberalism SEEMS TO ME, to be Christianity without Christ. A counterfit, self grandising facade. I can kill babies but not COWS.
Listen to me folks, Paleo here is right out of the Word.
You better read it, (just for a goof) and see where he's taking you.
Last I heard, Boseman was still on the map. Gotta go and practice some dogma.
The only thing that has been proven here is that you are a blind faith bible jockey. Go read a bit in the great book of yours and it will give you the strenght to just ignore any facts and love us all.
Did you ever learn how to discuss? It works by looking at the arguments of the other one and answering in an intelligent way, not losing a rant. I tried to give you an example by looking at your reference to that Stoner guy and digging up the bullshit about heliumdating on answersingenesis.
"Do you even understand how much code is written into the very DNA you have? Your library couldn't contain the books it would take to print it."
The entire human genome can be held on a stick drive that you can attach to your key chain, and there would be room for most of your favorite music as well.
"Oh and by the way, code is no good if there is no system to translate it into REALITY. OH yeah, THAT was an accident too!"
It is now believed that this translation of the code into reality is done through the mechanism of epigenetics.
MC,
I hope you don't mind me jumping in here. I have been reading this discussion some time now with interest. I am a practicing Anglican (good ol' Via Media!) and a realist.
Wow, MC kinda read what I wrote, but still no answers to direct questions. I think I'll take noodle's advice and just stop beating this dead horse. (even tho it was a little fun, except for the part where the rotted corpse burst open, eeww)
honestly you guys i havent looked at these comments in forever and im sure you're out on some holy quest with some incredible mission to convert the ignorant and save the lost or whatever MC, but nobody here is going to listen to you
and as for everyone else no matter how much we pummel MC with our logical arguments, his theological rebuttals, being on a totally different level, are practically incomparable in the first place and even if they were nobody here would be willing to change their stance on anything
oh, and by the way "You talk about the bad guys, in the East. YOU are trying to do the same thing they are. Kill the Christians" now this could be an innocent statement i don't know who i should be criticizing but let us know that you are belittling others and making yourself seem superior and im going to have to ask you to stop beating on Hinduism, just because their gods are not all in the human image your religion has made you feel so far superior that you feel like you have the right to berate other religions and other people
you have to realize that just because someone is more aware than anohter person just because one person is more intelligent than another doesn't meant hat that person is better than another
and MC, you need to stop making up words like grandising and start spelling words that exist right; it ruins your credibility and honestly, im giving up on this thread i think i mean its separated from evolutionism v. creationism and totally become a christianity v. all religion v. no religion battle with no outcome
and liberalism will NEVER be ANYTHING close to christianity you are truly weak politically, if you believe that there is a reason conservatism is more linked to religion than a lack thereof
and also, MC stop typing giant essays that don't prove any points it doesn't make you seem any more able to prove your point you are filibustering in a dispute that will never terminate until we die because we can't know until we die
I'm sitting here in the UK planning a journey to Peru and Chile. I'll be heading off quite soon and hope to learn a lot.
I say again - do NOT try to enter into a dialogue with this idiot mountainshitter!
No matter what you say, no matter what logical arguments you use, no matter what evidence you cite, this man will adhere to his blind faith. Lots of people have had their Damascene experiences, moments of truth, times when the synapses go into overdrive to convince us of some great being who guides us.
Fine!!!!
But for fuck's sake! That doesn't mean Creationism is anything other than a load of bullshit junk!
Do NOT give him the oxygen of controversy. Let him stew in his own stupidity.
As Adolf says - "Heil Skvirrel!" Might as well - it makes just as much sense.
To all: I never said there was no possiblitiy of evolutionary truth. I said I believed in a pre-adamic race along with all the possibilities that could have existed, many of which, as you all say, are documented.
Some scientists within the creationist camp point to evidence of a change, at one point, where the artifacts or tools that have been found, point to a dramatic shift in sophistication. That this might indicate the entrance of a modern, man. I am repeating what I read and make no claim to indepth understanding.
I do understand the universe is expanding, not contracting. Where did it all start? From what did it all come from? Where did that come from? Does time, make it an impossible thing to contemplate? God, as I understand Him, does not live in time, as we do.
Noodleboy is right, we're arguing apples and oranges. You are promoting what you see. I am promoting what can not be seen. The evidence of our passions speaks to two different realms. One to the mind, the other to the spirit.
I have great admiration for, not so much for knowledge alone, as for understanding. One brings information. The other balances that information with wisdom. In the case of evolution, I believe wisdom would say to you, "there is more". And so I say pursue it! Seek your data. If it is what you love, go for it. I am sure you would say the same to creationists.
As a Christian, I am not intimidated by your pursuit or even your findings. There it is. You are looking at it. Where your pursuit will end is yet to be seen. I do not look down on you in any way for believing what you see. I am not saying it is a lie. I am saying because there is always more, to be seen, then what we see is not the final answer. What I read in the Bible points to what you see, as well as a final answer. Is it all vanity? Solomon thought so.
To Pod, read your link also. Amazing accomplishments. It has been a process of figuring out how something works and copying it. Very complex, and virtually impossible without todays technology. Still, very impressive accomplishment. There still remains the wonder of it's original existance and design. The whole idea of it as a vehicle to orchestrate the creation of something, especially a human being. What an invention.
Paleo said " East is East and West is West and neither the twain shall meet." I understand the implication. The fact is they are right next to each other, always. Look behind you. As noodlebrain implied, we seem locked in the ultimate debate.
I know I have failed to answer all the questions. It has been a challenge to respond, to the multitude of post-men. I had hoped someone else more capable than I would have joined the thread. Do not think I have not learned from you all. I have. Most have changed their approach to me also. It all became more, since then.
Canuck (and all of you for that matter): Have a good life.
To Noodleboy: Who does have a great brain, I thank him and commend him for his skill at evaluating the situation. It will serve you well, in your life.
I probably should welcome the Paleo types. The Word describes what Paleo is hoping for, the elimination of the old rule, the welcoming of a new age. A godless age, where belief is tolerated for a season, then no longer tolerated. Of course, according to the Word, this all leads to Christ's return. I should be happy!
I however like Peter, in his lack of understanding, have cried out, "May it never be Lord".
The appearance of the end must come, according to Jesus. What will happen, which has been foretold, is there for you to read. Read it once, just so you can be informed when it happens. Don't be guilty of what you have accused me of.
We are all human beings. Forgive my short comings. You have prompted me to pursue more information on both sides of our discussion.
I have always held a wonder and awe for life, especially as seen through the microscope at OSU. I did however look at it with an appreciative heart, crediting the Creator for his bewildering abilities.
Naive you say. OK. I understand your point of view.
Garbage: I hope you enjoy your trip to Peru and Chile. Just to comment on your Damascene experience.
For me, it was seeing a pillar of fire in my dining room. It only lasted for a second or so. It was about 3 feet in diameter, in went from the floor to the 10' ceiling. It was made up of individual flames, about the size of the palm of my hand. I was not drinking, no drugs, and I had never read the Bible. It was there and was gone. No burn marks, it was dark in the room with the exception of a night light in the kitchen. I was talking to myself afterwards. I flipped the lights on and off. I tried to reproduce it. I could not. That was 26 years ago. I am 59 years old now.
It was not until I became a Christian that I read of God appearing as a pillar of fire to the people of Israel (at night), or about the day of Pentacost where tongues of fire appeared over the believers heads, or that in Hebrews 1:7 He refers to his angels as ministering spirits, (winds) and flames of fire, ...to those who will inherit salvation.
MC - I give you credit for discussing this matter with a army of opposing positions. I do not understand the religious mind, and I guess you will never understand the scientific mind.
Among your fellow Christians, at least you made the effort to define the void that separates your beliefs from the secular world. This chasim is widened by both sides and seldom bridged.
For having the courage and tenacity to enjoin us in debate I give you thanks. Voids between beliefs are not a problem unless the boundaries are not defined. Good fences make for good neighbors.
If there is a Heaven, and your God see fit to give me a pass, then perhaps we will have even more to discuss.
I leave you with a quote from Arthur C. Clarke, who wrote:
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Pod, that Clarke quote is very right. And it describes well the problem people like MC have with science. To really understand science you need to have a well founded base in logic, mathematics, and the natural sciences.
The creationism promoters (I will not call them scientists since they are fakes not scientists) give themselfs the appearance of having a scientific base (in reality about as much as my late grandmother used to have...). And it is a lot less effort to believe than to understand. If the magician does a good show they just buy into it, the scientist is asking too much mental work.
and paleohombre, props on the huxley quote it essentially defines why so many religious arguments no longer have a place in society when humans lacked an understanding of the world around them, they resorted to the invention of religion, as a way to shelter themselves from an unknown
however, even when what we now know virtually disproves so many religious theories and ideas, many still cling on to their imagined faiths
mc, although i totally disagree with everything you say, and perceive the majority of it as ignorance, you do at least consider the other point to some degree, something i find profoundly rare
however, in reading my argument, you seemed to skip over all of the things i said that weren't exactly to your convenience specifically the remarks made at your belittlement of other religions and the stereotyping of others, for this is something that cannot be refuted
and also, for those of you that haven't noticed whenever we discover some new scientific fact that is essentially blasphemy, religion in the end accommodates for this new information.
The world is no longer flat the sun no longer orbits the earth and evolution has become "intelligent design"
if evolution does not exist then mental disabilities should not either and although you said that you're not denying its existence, MC, im just making a point
life isn't fair for everyone; to someone it's not fair to, chances of reproduction are generally lower (speaking genetically) when it's extremely generous to someone then their chances of reproduction are generally greater however, as far as humans go, hte process is slowing down due to modern medicines, practices, and living conditions
MC said,
"Western civilization????? Where do you live???? The land of Plymouth Rock, The Pilgrims, The American Revolution, The Constitution with laws established by the guiding hand of Christianity, WESTERN CIVILIZATION????
The rejection of dogmatic beliefs??? Those beliefs that have governed our country for 200 years, causing it to be one of the most powerful nations on earth. One of the most benevolent countries on earth?????? The same beliefs that are only now, (since 1963) are being stepped on and disparaged to the extent that your beloved technology has brought more garbage into our home, like porngraphy and child porn, that we can not even get it out lawfully? AND the killing of millions of babies is beyond belief. Oh yes, the morals that kept us from such outrageous waste of human life, are being pulverized by those who see that blessed soul saving governance as something out of the DARK AGES. YOU sir are bringing a dark age upon us that will steal your attention away from your beloved fossils and cause you to curse the very God who could save us all. Oh I forgot, you are already doing that. "
Touched a nerve I'd say. The notion that all that is great with western civilization is born of its connection to Christianity is as far fetched and as unproven as the creationist claptrap against evolution. A large segment of those that fled from Europe to the New World wanted refuge from the likes of you that were running the inquisitions of the 1600's. You are quite delusional as to how important your belief is in creating the greatness that is America. Our earliest coinage clearly shows that it was liberty and freedom were the principles we most valued. In God We Trust did not appear until the Civil War until norther bible thumpers thought it a good move to engender the idea among the northern populace that were tiring of the war that God was on the side of the Union. Unfortunately the motto has remained. Frankly I prefer the old coinage with the allegorical symbols of freedom and liberty.
Don't you use that technology to send your version of an unsolicited sales pitch? If you don't like porn, dont look at it, if you don't believe in abortion don't have one, and I'd dare to say that if the lives lost due to abortion were tallied against the lives lost due to religios strife the strife side still is ahead. If you don't want to live in a dark age, get enlightened. As I recall, the dark ages were a time when all wisdom resided in the monasteries churches and castles and only priests and nobles could read and write. Pestilence, famine, slavery (serfdom) and warfare were the order of the day.
I have stated my experience of having similar discussions with others in my 59 years of existence. You and others like you are a a real trip for all that there is out there to encounter. The burning pillar revelation is a nice touch. It reminds me of an old story about the Reverand Billy Graham when as a young man he and his brother were taking a break from plowing the fields in their North Carolina parents farm. They were staring at the clouds and both noticed that some of the clouds came together and appeared to take on the forms of the alphabet letters P&G. Billy took this to mean Preach God and we all know where that led. His brother took it to mean Plow Good! I've experienced all manner of bizaare natural phenomena in the environment in my 59 years of living but never felt exalted enough to take it to mean a revelation from God. I'm just not wired that way. As to who is out of their mind I think the burning pillar settles that. No one on this list is minion over anyone else except perhaps thos that have been so fortunate to have received revelations from God as you know claim. I continued following this thread waiting for some such statement from you. That has been a commonality I have seen many times among those of your ilk. I'm jealous actually! I spent good money in my youth on psychoactive inducing agents and had some incredible and insightful experiences but never have I gotten the all powerful hallucinatory experience that takes me so far away from reality that I enter another realm from which I seem destined to remain. Did you ever read " The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross"? Did you ever view Scorseses cinematic film "The Last Temptation of Christ"? Real eye openers for discussion and thought on hallucinatory revelations.
Bozeman is still on the map. My eldest son lives in Montana. He is a scientist working in the energy exploration business. Your state of MT is no less a refuge from me or others that think like me than any other state. You should read Jared Diamonds book "Collapse", at least the chapters on Montana. It will provide you with an intelligent view of what the State was and how it is changing and how even an area thought to be so isolated that the impacts of environmental degredation would never be a problem. Regrettably, that is not true at all. Knowing the overt and underlying issues you face there may provide you with the tools for activism and the science data support mechanisms that you and others could be effective humans in reversing the trends and mitigating the environmental challenges ahead. On the other hand you could be one of those end of days lunatics parying for all of the life sustaining forces surrounding your precious Montana to collapse in order to fulfill some far fetched prophecy. If you are just the plain sensible western type, I think even you know that just praying for the environmental problems afflicting your state to end is not going to cut it. It will take action and it will take an educated electorate to put into office a representative legislature that also understands the issues and is committed to addressing the problem.
I am superior to no one here on this list or any other list for that matter. Nor is anyone here superior to me. We are all peers here. The Magna Carta was one of the first steps that led the way out of the Dark Ages by breaking the power of omnipotent rulers and creating the sense of a peerage of enlightened and educated men. Many steps have been taken since and many better documents have evolved as has our knowledge of ourselves and of the sciences. There are many inherant problems still within the western democracies but they are still evolving. Evolution trancends life and is an integral aspect of all things physical as well as human created institutions.
My son and thousands of others like him and me are living and visiting there. Your museums tell the truth about science and fossils and evolution and the environmental challenges ahead. I'll be joining him during my summer teaching break for a few weeks of fishing, nature hiking and fossil collecting in some locales where his company owns mineral leases. You never know MC, we could just run into one another and in all liklihood we would pass one another by with you thinking about your bible and me just thinking about fishing, watching some wildlife, collecting some rocks and fossils or better yrat an ice cold beer on a hot summer day.
A factoid about religious inscriptions: The belt buckle of the German soldiers in WWII said "Gott mit uns" (god is with us). Fine christians fighting for the good in the world...
Try this "document" on for size. Living here for the last 59 years has given me some insight.
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
Factoid, 46 million aborted PER YEAR world wide, see Guttmacher Institute and Center for Bio-ethical Reform. There's a chance, abortions win your comparison with religiously inspired deaths. Especially under Christian banners.
Google In God we trust history. a US Treasury web site. More than a few bible thumpers. Even today, Americans want it to stay.
I wouldn't have believed ( pillar of fire) me either, if I didn't know me! :-) Hang on a minute, oops, my white coat got in the way of my rat, I mean mouse! Sorry halucinating again.
Billy Graham huh. I am laughing hillariously that you would have to stoop so low. Pretty weak. But I understand the desperation......Oh Yeah. ( I'm sorry, ....I'm still laughing.)
Oh, God, please destroy Montana,................I want to see You.
Come ON Pal-eo, "Faith without works, ... is dead!"
We're all peers? Maybe there is some hope for me after all.
If you wish to check, The Magna Carta, put all men under laws determined by the king, but including King John and all future sovereigns. We used it as a worthy model but carried it further.
" Magna Carta (1215 AD) is a charter of ancient liberties guaranteed by a king to his subjects; the Constitution of the United States is the establishment of a government by and for "We the People."
Look, Pal-eo, have a wonderful time with your son. I am a relationship person. What a great way to spend that time together. I will take a walk in honor of your time there. I won't have to think of my bible. I'll be looking at His creation. I agree, it is beautiful.
And by the way. Should a guy about your age pass by, offer him a beer. He'll appreciate it, and you for it.
Forserious: One of the faults that accompanies belief, (of any kind), is that one always thinks he is right.
Since (I believe) we only know what we've been taught, you are seeing these guys "teach" what they believe.
I think balance is missing from both sides. Understanding and wisdom might bring compromise to both camps some day.
It has been said, "But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. James 1: 5-7
We all need wisdom. The two guys in the vid also.
Podman: Our Democracy has had Gods blessing (from my point of view). In the last 40 years, we have seen a moving away from what I believe are sustaining principles. The assassinations of the sixties, was a stunning blow to our country's heart. The abortion decision, the self-centered sixties to eighties just illustrated the reeling compass of our national moral direction. Today we see things in the news that stun us in disbelief. Some of which was not new, but technology now deliveres every little thing into our laps, as we eat dinner,... while watching TV!
Withdrawing from Godly principles is the wrong direction. Trouble, which I do not want any more than anybody else, will bring people back to God. It always has. That was the one redeeming aspect of the Dark Ages. All the bad things that happened prompted a growth in people's personal relationship with God.
Historically, the Catholic church's take on the dark ages was that everything was fine. The Protestant church was very unhappy with the position and policies and actions of the Papal church. The Muslims at that time were attaching Europe without mercy. The Crusades, in part, put a stop to that. Was it bad. Yes. Was it necessary? It seems so.
During this same time around 466 AD, an intellectual movement that hated all religion began. It is no wonder. Their world was in an upheaval. This wasn't God's fault bt instead mans. To them, religion was a fantasy, a farsical system of rediculous beliefs. That's how long ago and where Paleo's point of view originated. Hence, (to use a term of that age) his references to the Dark Ages.
Much of the church was corrupt back then. " Judgement BEGINS in the house of the Lord". So,....trouble came to the land as well, which brought about things like Luther and The Reformation.
People moved here because they saw hope in our way of life. That may have simply meant financial opportunity. For many, the security of a spiritual life compatible with theirs was the critical factor.
Do I think all new comers should remember that Christianity was the dominant belief that guarded behavior and (as I saw it) protected and sustained our country? Yes. That it was the identification we needed for Jehova God to bless us? Yes.
If God is King of our hearts then He can be King of our country. Even if a Democrat is elected. :-)
MC,
It is all one grand and great experiment. Lithic technology, Control of Fire, Discovery of Agriculture, The Age of Bronze and Iron, the rise of Kingdoms, Empire building, the Democracy of the Greeks, the Administration of the Romans, the Age of Faith, the Dark Ages & Feudalism, the Magna Carta, the Enlightenment, the Renaissance, the Reformation, the Age of Exploration, Colonialism, the Age of Reason, the Revolutions of the 18th Century, The Declaration of Independence, Manifest Destiny the Industrial Revolution, the Unionists, the Reformists and the Great Society, Civil Rights, Womens Rights, the Green Revolution, the Space Age, the Information Age adnauseum for those that feel trapped and threatened, belief in the prospect of a better and more just world for others. A sustainable future in order to continue the great experimentation process.
Like any experiment, an exercise of information-gathering where variation is present and the experimenter ( society, learned human beings) are interested in the effect of some process or intervention (the 'treatment') on some objects (the 'experimental units'), which may be people, thus a discipline that has very broad application across all the natural and social sciences. Full control by the experimenter over the variables leads to a more reliable hypothesis and anticipated outcome as can be evidenced by countless controlled experiments in all manner of scientific research but often full control is not always an option thus leading to unanticipated or surprising results. The variables at play in the greater societal experiments are and will forever remain not fully controllable. What are those variable? Culture, race, religion, economics, natural resources and a host of others.
The gyres of social history are like a circulating and spiraling current on some fractile plane where our concern should focus on designing experiments, not experimenting in designs that have not served us well. Religion is one of those variables that is tolerated in designing these social experiments (tolerance is an aspect of the process that science values) but recognized as a variable that must be to some extent controlled because historically, prior experimentation without controls in this realm seems to always lead to experimenting in designs yet again resulting in intolerant and dogmatic beliefs that are the antithesis of science.
The video and the anti-science rantings of intolerance at the scientific facts and studies in medicine, environment, evolution, global warming, etc. that we hear echoed by members of congress and the President of the United States are a manifestation of yet another period of experimenting with past designs that are failing our society and our nations influence in the global sphere and jeopardizes the future of humanity. Clearly you like they are sincere in your beliefs but your self rightousness causes you to remain intolerant of those that see it all quite differently, that dare to look beyond that which has not worked as you would have hoped. The very intolerance amongst the competing world religions and the intolerance within Christianity itself towards various sects is an observation that can't be refuted. Religion is just one subset of all the other variable of this great experiment. It has its place. It helps people in the face of tragedy to cope, it provides a template upon which to build a movement such as Civil rights or justice for the poor but it is not the end all single most important variable if it seeks to continue a focus on keeping humanity in the Dark Ages.
I'm not stooping low to mention Billy Graham, I am demonstrating tolerance and humor. I've listened to him, I've listened to you, I listen to my christian colleague, I have a lifetime of listening to proselytizers of christianity and other faiths. Most are benign and of no great threat and some amongst them provide service and good in the name of their religious convictions. The subsets that are malignant and hell bent on the destruction of us all on the basis of some prophecy fulfillment obligation are worthy of concern and control.
I could drink a beer with you MC. I bear no ill will towards you as long as you can accept that it is a world where one cannot go forward and espouse principles of freedom and liberty while at the same time dictating the religious beliefs and tenents that are the prerequisite for existing in that world just because the word god was injected in different periods of experimentation into documents, speeches and cause for action.
You still don't grasp the difference between fairytale and fact. There can be no compromise between science and creationism. Creationism is dumb bullshit and just outright wrong.
The sooner humanity gets rid of religion the better, but I don't have very high hopes that it will happen soon.
Did you get your history "facts" from answersingenesis, or is there a BC history site? Why do I even ask, of course there will be several of those.
The most basic rule for being able to have a qualified opinion (versus just an opinion which is like an asshole, everyone has one) is to use multiple information sources. And of course you need to be able to think and not just to recite.
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