This type of mail is unfortunate. It paints all believers with the same brush. I am a Christian and I can respect that Dawkins has his own beliefs (or non-beliefs) while disagreeing with him. And I do disagree 100% with his view.
The type of people that are claiming to be Christian and writing this kind of mail to him doesn't do people like me any favours.
Well, your books DO say you should stone non-believers, so it's no surprise that some people feel this is acceptable and even necessary. I'm not saying all religious people are bad, but religion does provide a great way for people to be idiots.
a reluctant counter posting.....I "believe", whatever you might make of that. And I and others like me, who do not actually kill other people in the name of our religion, grate at being generalized by the current wave of in-crowd atheists.
I am not particularly interested in making you think the way I do, nor do I piss on your shoes for thinking the way you do.....and that's the way most, forgive me, "Christians" think, if I daresay (albeit, crudely).
I tuned into that endless discussion (museum bad day) and marvelled at how the zealot has been able to engage those I credit as intelligent thinkers in a fruitless effort to state their firmly held cases.
They each do, of course.....and the zealot must take great satisfaction at the end of the day in having put forth his finest effort to bring others to Christ, despite knowing it to be nothing more than an empty gesture.
And I think even less of the several whose joint and complementary efforts posted thoughts they all comfortably agreed made the zealot clearly baseless in his beliefs...the paucity of proofs and the blindness of his posturings.
I will stop here, hoping not to have moved that discussion to this site...one is more than enough. If you are comfortable in your take on life and afterlife if there is one, more power to you.
Meantime, I think the Red Sox are in trouble, but the Yankees are yesterday.
Chaz - MC offers us a opportunity to discuss the conflict of belief systems without worrying about being shot, or having our house burned down.
You are used to this kind of thing, but to the rest of us MC's personal philosophy is interesting, and kinda bewildering. So, many of us are curious, (at least that is why I post under that thread), and what is wrong with that?
I think we are all getting something out of it, and it is better than the discourse in these, and other threads for the past three months.
Also, I believe that when the nuclear, or whatever button is pressed that will destroy me and most of mankind, it will be pressed by a finger that is attached to a very religious mind.
chaz, first of all I would never ever put you into the same category as MC or the flamers in this vid. I do have a problem with people who are influenced by religion in a way that interferes with rational thinking and daily life. I don't have a problem with people who silently practice their peaceful religion and have both feet firmly on earth.
MC is a severe nutcase. I was trying to get him into a discussion or lead him into a logical trap that might make him think, this I have given up several weeks ago. Now I am staying in this thread to make sure he is not going to have the last word, just as with streamlined.
I'm an atheist with good ass reasons,havnt read richard dawkins' book but I can sure as hell tell you I agree 100% with him from every time I hear hime speak
How about the religious idiots committing suicide? It is them who believe the bullshit. The letdown of course is that they will find out nothing since you just cease to exist when you die.
Oh, the resulting posts from the usual brainless types like you make up the entertainment. Kinda missing you in the "ruinmuseum" thread, your rants are even less coherent than MCs, and that is really hard to do...
It was once suspected that belief in God caused cancer, but this link was later disproved in a double blind faith study. It turns out that the only empirical evidence for disease linked to God, is self inflicted ignorance.
See, they are not going to scare him with this tactic, he needs something more tangible like "Dawkins, if you don't stop we are going to kidnap and lock you in a cell with Canuck on meth and a copy of George Bush Jr.'s autobiography" That should work.
I LOL with Mr. Dawkins over the church van thing. It was funny.
And,...I agree it all was pathetic.
Read a few posts at "How to ruin a trip to the museum" The posts are amazingly identical! Life threatening, name calling, cursing plethora of four letter descriptives. All aimed (instead) at the Christian, for what he (believes), or refuses to capitulate to.
In the end, at that post, a heart is trying to reach hearts but minds are getting in the way. Minds only want to hear from minds. Hearts will only be able to reach hearts.
Minds intepret the outreach of hearts, as mind games. The heart has no chance but the heart is compelled to reach, touch, guide, befriend. Why? That is what a heart does.
Is there a good reason for this compelling futility? First, a heart oriented person always recognizes a missing, (anemic is more correct), heart of a mind dominant person. Heartman goes into EMT mode, search and rescue mode. The mindman perceives the paddles, ( the shock that IT is not supposed to be in control) as an attack. But in fact, the heart keeps the mind alive ( both literally as well as figuratively).
The heart administers the knowledge in the mind, with wisdom that honors the knowledge. On the contrary, when the mind rules the heart, wisdom is diverted. Wisdom only flows one way. From the heart to the mind. Logic is often not wisdom. (I can win the battle and lose the war.)
The mind alone, (Knowledge, mind guidence), will destroy what life is really about. Why? Because the mind has no way of discerning it's errors, except by new input (comparison) and re-evaluation. If that input is only mind-sensitive stuff, and not heart oriented, then wisdom, fails to balance the correction called for.
Because a person is defined by what he does (or says), which is determined by what he believes, re-evaluation is a constant healthy process, a duel existence between the heart and mind, complimenting each other. Why is that important? Because balanced persons recognize the imbalance. Value of knowledge is assigned as a result of the presence of the wisdom, which that balance reflects.
The most valuable re-evaluation comes from the wisdom in the heart. The mind must be trained to place higher value on heart input. Your heart's authority over your mind and the actions precipitated by your mental calculations, is critical to the health of your conscience. The real you.
The mind just functions in the truth as it understands it, like a computer. It even interprets an appeal to the heart as an attack on the mind. Mind dominance versus heart dominance is the determining factor in being aware of the truly valuable aspects of life.
People, don't confuse hearts with minds. The greatest mind is nothing without a heart. Where does a heart apply it's wisdom except in the mind of a thinker. Knowledge is not wisdom. Knowledge applied with wisdom is the goal. Wisdom says to either camp, be careful, "There is more", than what you are aware of.
Come now mounty muffler, to favour the heart over the mind is what caused the crusades
Everyone has a heart, it's down to their upbringing and their education to form the state of mind that helps chose how hard the hard is
A failure to believe in the tooth fairy or god does not make someone hard hearted.
Upbringing and education (indoctrination in the context of religion) can just as easily create a fundamentalist idiot reliant on one old fictional text as it can someone who thinks a little more deeply about the world around them
However neffie is right on one point - I'm speechless that you keep preaching
Oh, by the way Mounty, the heart is kept alive by the brain, which is where the mind is purported to reside; electrical currents do the job of keeping your ticker beating. The heart is simply a pump
Now if you are talking of compassion, then surely that is also a mind based thing; there is after all no 'compassion' organ in the body is there? Oh...hang on...that would be the brain again wouldn't it?
...where the abillity to think comes from.
...where those religious zealots go to attack freedom of thought via the method known as brainwashing
There is no 'heart washing' is there?
You're talking nicely worded, platitudinal crap again aren't you, you naughty little boy..?
Does it hurt much to meet people who are immune to your tactics? Who call you out for what you are? And who are able to defeat every single of your attempts to use what you call science to support your nutcase religion?
You don't reach out to hearts, you are preaching. Now you switched to portraying me as a heartless person, can't you think of any more intelligent way to attack me?
And again you implicitly claim that things like love, compassion etc. can only come from your religion. Quite to the contratry, your religion did cause war, hate, and misery. There is no wisdom and no knowledge in your religion.
Oh, yes, you did not mention religion at all in your post, except in the wrong claim that your life has been threatened, but you surely will soon take the fairy tale book and give us a couple good quotes.
One thing you are right about: There is much much more than YOU are aware of.
Move evidence of the true nature of some silly, foolish, and ignorant Christians: evil. Pure unuadulterated foam spewing evil hatred. And, they call themselves Christians.
I have read a great deal of your posts and the responses. I have some questions which i hope you maybe able to answer:
If God loves us why did he create hell?
Why are most wars caused by Religion, when religion is meant ot be peaceful
Why did God create the earth?
If he gave his son away, he did know in theory that he would return to heaven, so it wasn't much of a gamble was it or was it?
God does hold some responsibility having created the earth to maybe make things a little clearer, why do you think that hasn't happened? or would that make things to easy( Meant sincerely, is it that we have to choose from a balanced choice ?)
My point as mentioned above is that the posts (against) Mountainclimber were in exactly the same tone and verbage heard here.
Besides Mako's standard fall back to the non-figurative facts, one might ask him how long that brain would last without blood? Sure one needs the other.
It is not about phyisiology, unless you are mind-dominated.
You never hear of a song titled, " I left my brain,....in San Francisco!, or "My achey,...breaky mind,... LOL
We all know there is something that our heart brings to the process of decisions, living and being that is critical to our sense of well-being and the peace of our conscience.
But back to the real heart of this thread.
Garbage said, " What a load of unmitigated, unsubstantiated, finger-in-the-arse crap! Will you please just fuck off and leave rational, good people to debate things that really matter?
Canuck said," And instead of worrying about "daring anyone to let God in their lives"....I got a better suggestion:
Seeing as how "God" is a Big Boy and can pretty well take care of himself, I'm sure, how about you/me/us/we leave Him the fuck outta this......
and YOU instead "dare" ME to be in YOUR life.
I fucking guarantee you, that looking into MY eyes is going to fucking affect you MUCH MORE than looking into "His".
Oh yes.
Much.....much.....MUCH.....more.
And Canuck again," Now shut your fucking sewer gate, and stop making yourself look like a bigger shitpoke than you already do.
Asshole.
SO,......my point is demonstraited by these few quotes from the "museum thread. There are many but time limits my pasting them at this time.
So...basically in a nutshell you are helping to summarize the general view of your proselytising. Thanks.
LOL!
Unlike Dawkins, most people probably don't have the inclination to be as patient with those as afflicted as yourself... You basically keep getting told to STFU because you continue to preach. Dem's da breaks if you wanna keep preaching!
Cause and effect Monty scrambler, cause and effect...
MC, the discussion is over, it has been concluded that you are a nutcase and that your religion is irrelevant. You deny education and thinking and you are trying to impose the very same limitations on others. It is basically impossible to have anything like an intelligent discussion with you since you ignore questions and switch back to quoting (primarily from the bible but also from other posts) plus you are unable to understand most of the arguments.
Your rant about hearts is just a smoke screen to cover that you have nothing to offer but bullshit.
Does your stupid bible tell you nowhere "thou shalt not be obnoxius"?
The problem in your argument about the tone used against Christians is shortsighted. Many "Christians" are using the same language in defense of their faith. And such adjectives are not limited to matters of faith, or to you personally.
It happens when people are passionate about what they believe, and the defense thereof. Here is a example: No God, and lots of colorful language: http://www.glumbert.com/media/dolphin
As I said a week ago the context of this thread is the pathetic e-mails and what makes them pathetic.
The sender's lose any validity or any hope of effect because of the insulting content. The e-mails present the writers as they truly are, a discredit to their supposed beliefs.
I think Mr. Dawkins would agree it is an elementary point.
Their unbridled verbage is not Christian, it is just like that of the "admirer's" of the zealot on the museum thread. Many who are likely supporters of Dawkins, no reflection on him personally. The reflection is theirs alone.
As shown above, the congruity between the two groups is crystal clear.
Remember what you thought about the people e-mailing Dawkins. That is who many of you are. The same.
Dear Podfriend, why defend the adjectives from either or any type person or situation? I am not ignorant to spontanious expletives. I am a carpenter with a hammer. Still, don't we practice restraint as a matter of character?
Personal verbal attacks are the topic here. Commonality of tactic's (here and at museum) reveals the pathetic truth of either camp. Neither can be divorced from it's camp because neither side will allow it. Only those of greater character, maybe even Dawkins himself, can set the standard by rebuking those on their own side of these conflicts.
The few should be seen for what they are.
The few should not be allowed to ruin the possibilities for the many.
That,...will be up to the rest of us, not them.
They can say what they wish, but, we each (side) have a responsibility to buoy up our position and it's credibility by taking a stand against the vulgarity of our own.
"Better is open rebuke than love that is concealed." (Solomon)
I am more than willing to chastise those supposed Christians and have herein.
For those few that have found, for themselves, a cadre of cursing comrades here on Glumbert, happiness is being ensconced in the mutual admiration of each other's vulgarity.
The small group, the few,... rule and represent.
The few, the vulgar, the intellectuals,....evidently.
Insult does not require cusswords. When you tell me "Jesus loves you" this is an insult to me since it is one of the things that I think are absolutely outrageously stupid. So why should I not retort by saying you are a religious nutcase?
For those who do not chose (love) Him via His son, for satan and his demons. In short for His enemies. After all He proved His love by dying for us.
"Why are most wars caused by Religion, when religion is meant ot be peaceful."
When one religion gets agressive or a nation (under the covering of religion) gets agressive, wars result. ie Hitler, the Muslims in 466, and todays Muslim militants.
"Why did God create the earth?"
It is a pietry dish, proper environment, etc.
" If he gave his son away, he did know in theory that he would return to heaven, so it wasn't much of a gamble was it or was it? "
No it was not. His hope was to impress us in a way we would appreciate, Death.
"God does hold some responsibility having created the earth to maybe make things a little clearer, why do you think that hasn't happened?"
I and millions of others believe He has. Through the Bible. If one allows himself to be convinced by others that the Bible is false, clarity will never come.
"Is George Bush a Good man?"
Every man has his personal challenges. His go far beyond personal. 9-11, Afganistan, Iraq, to name a few. I am willing to accept his confession that he is a believer. Yes, I believe he is a good man.
And then man created god and he wrote the bible to tell others what to believe in and he thought up hell to scare those who would not willingly eat bullshit.
Unless you grasp the idea that the bible is a man made book and not a very good one, you will never understand anything.
It is "perti dish" by the way, and the other word you fail to recognize correctly is "library".
" If he gave his son away, he did know in theory that he would return to heaven, so it wasn't much of a gamble was it or was it? "
MC responce: "No it was not. His hope was to impress us in a way we would appreciate, Death."
Also:
Because He came, we have come to know a God who has lived where we live, been tempted as we have, and because of that we can believe that He understands our challenges. The experience (as a human) was as much for Him as for us.
He is compassionate because of this experience. He has "Been there, done that", and had it done to Him, so to speak.
One might say, "Why is He compassionate when we killed His son?"
Dear friends, we didn't kill Him, He layed His life down purposely for our sake. He chose to be the (innocent) sacrifice for all who would believe.
Why was He able to do that?
Because He makes the rules. He is God. That was the plan from the beginning.
He has redeemed His creation from it's own self-destruction. Those who believe in this are spared a life of eternal death. That's existance in a state of non-existance, tormented by thoughts of what they could have done, remembrances of wrong choices, reminders of every curse and vulgarity they spewed out of their mouths to God, Jesus and those who represented Him, The final and foremost thought being their rejection of the salvation Jesus offered them, and this occurring over and over again, forever, with no hope of escape from this tormenting existance. All their own doing! He gave us the One and only, easy way out of our delema.
We all have an eternal spirit. We all determine our own eternal future.
The Word says, " When Jesus returns the nations will moan." Why?
Because they laughed at, critisized, defaced and rejected Him. Now they will turn away in shame. Their inescapable end has come.
It doesn't have to be that way.
It will however if our minds get in the way.
Our mind is like a big hammer in the hand. Over many uses it causes callouses. We no longer feel the pain of a splinter, a splinter of appeal to our heart. That little prick of caution, warning, to be careful, to not be wise in our on eyes. The infection could kill us.
It doesn't have to be that way.
MC
If only they had believed in Him. All their bad choices and acts could have been forgiven. A real (eternal) existance awaits those who are willing to take a faith stand (no matter who criticizes you) and believe unashamedly in Him.
It is all gods plan, but still humans did not follow it? Do you even notice what contradictory bullshit you are telling all the time?
God is allmighty and he has a plan, yet mere humans can defeat or at least hinder his plans? But then again they do not, since it was gods plan and it is all a great mystery and you have to believe in it.
The very same reasoning I get from my 8 year old son when he wants to explain some wrongdoing of his or tries to avoid homework.
Mako said, "So...basically in a nutshell you are helping to summarize the general view of your proselytising. Thanks." LOL!
LOL! (Nice attempt at a cheap paint job, ...sorry wrong Maaco) "Uh,... no just a general view was of the twins. Dawkins e-mailers/ Museum posters, not all,.... and yes, You're welcome."
" MC, the discussion is over, ( Because You say so?), ..."it has been concluded that you are a nutcase and that your religion is irrelevant."
(Oh I forgot, You say so).
"You deny education and thinking and you are trying to impose the very same limitations on others. "
(Care to quote me on that point? You can use either thread)
My dear Bug.
Don't be mad at me for calling you to a higher standard.
I have not discredited your science, only your (and our) alienating tendencies,... equally!
How can we ever consider each other's point of view? That is, unless true consideration has never been the goal?
I have challenged Bug, in the last portion of my last post. I understand if he is still looking through the multitude of posts on the "museum" thread.
What is the challenge? That Bug would stop making baseless statements.
I am hoping he will see his beliefs are based in antiquated details and habitual recurring declarations that have gained a reality of their own, though imaginary in most cases.
Most of the science being pursued AISI, may look backward and may look forward, yet it will effect today most of all. Why? You will be turned in one way or another by your discoveries.
That, which I pursue, AISI, looks backward as well as forward, yet it will effect today most of all. Why? I will be turned one way or another by my discoveries.
One may be a Paleontoligist, another may be an Astrophysicist, and you accept and respect each other's discipline. So add another member, a discipline that may in fact affect the very sciences you study. It may remain to be seen, but there are plenty of things that remain to be seen in your disciplines also.
This Collider deal is pretty impressive. "Dark Matter", interesting. Premise, interesting. Will I check it out, of course? Why? You guys have prompted an interest. Will it cause me to dump my Christianity? Why is that even a question?
My beliefs do not restrain me from being interested. The only reason my beliefs would be pertinent, as I see it, would be if this is not about true science but about the defamation of God and Christianity.
That is really good. You have show several times that you are not able to comprehend the leads I gave you. You even once complained that it is soooo complicated to understand science.
It remains a fact that your failing to understand something does not mean it is wrong, it just means that you are not able to understand it.
So my beliefs are based on "antiquated details". LOL LOL LOL LOL!!!! That is really good. First of all my view of the world is based on science not belief. Contrary to you I don't need to believe, I do actually understand science. Second I am up to speed with current science, it is you who lives in a 2000 year old book.
And you still fail to understand that there is absolutely nothing you and your religion has to offer for science, no insights, no wisdom, no nothing. You can be subject to scientific studies (i.e. a thesis paper "Religious fanatics in the early 21st century", or "Self inflicted stupidity through religion"), but you can not contribute.
As for the LHC: Nice that you are interested. Do you think the string theory will be supported by the results? Or are you expecting the Higgs Boson will turn out to be nonexistent?
God is actually not a subject of science, science deals with things that exist and are observable. As for christianity, like any other religion it has its fanatics and those are the problem, otherwise christianity is not any more interesting than any of the other religions, just a waste of time and effort. And no need for defamation, you are doing a good job yourself.
I guess staying on topic is difficult when you don't have an answer.
The topic is your statements about religion and specfically me. Not about science. I have not critcized science or the few actual scientific discussions you have posted.
Also, to expect one to plunge into a "scientific discussion" without a qualified base of knowledge is no license for criticism.
In fact, my honest, though hazardous, admission that it was difficult for me understand your links or posts, substantiates a personal virtue and quality often found to be critical in the scientific rhelm,...that being "honesty".
In the pummeling of all the posts, in wishing to respond quickly to others besides yourself, I did not feel like taking the time to pour over the myriad of details, requiring research of backround details, in order to be educated in such a way as to be able to discuss YOUR question or post in depth. My understanding would have been superficial, and subject to further criticism over same depth.
Higgs Boson will be either non-existant or demonstrate the likelyhood of God's existance. The unknown dimensions in string theory, may in fact be of the "supernatural" domaine that I have referred to. Invisible, yet existant, influencing yet unprovable. Might even look like a pillar of fire?!!!!!
"The Theory of Everything" sounds excitingly spiritual, though, if real.
If possible, I expect only a micro-snap-shot supporting Dark Matter, will be obtained by the Collider. Why? Because, if it is revealing God, God has established His plan to be a "faith" based. If anything He has hidden proofs of His existance in order to maintain this requirement, until He determines the end of the "test" period, the Time dimension part of the M Theory.
He once said, Man could do anything. (At the tower of Bable).
Should the Collider reveal Him, or even hint at His existance, you will find the return of Jesus soon after and certainly within the time it takes to "flesh-out" their discoveries. Why? Because those who have believed in faith will not be denied the honor their "illogical" position has earned them.
Oh, trying to make me look like I was using your tactics of avoiding topics?
I don't care to look up qoutes from you from a part of the discussion that is over. My statement that you deny eduaction and thinking and want to impose this on everyone was my summary of the discussion with you.
All your thinking is boxed in by the bible, nothing outside is possible, your belief is absolute and explains everything. That is the bottom line. And that is a very limited view of the world, actually it is not even a view of the world since the view of the real world is blocked by your puny book.
I am not expecting you to all of a sudden be able to hold up your end in any useful scientific discussion. Though I am asking how anyone who demonstrated like you that he fails to know and understand paleontology and plate tectonics can conclude that the biblical flood did take place?
The Higgs Boson has nothing to do with any god and alternative dimensions or branes have nothing to do with supernatural. The term "god particle" comes from the fact that if the Higgs can be proven it will support the current theory, not because your favourite fairy tale figure is behind it.
Oh, that would be a surprise for you. The few scientists I have met who were not atheists did have a really healthy relation with their religion. It is more like a spiritual concept to them, much like yoga, or a kind of cultural background, but it does not have influence on their work and daily life.
For some quite obsure reason even the majority of the christians do not take the bible as literally as you do...
Bug said, "I don't care to look up qoutes from you, (to prove his accusations), from a part of the discussion that is over. My statement that you deny eduaction and thinking and want to impose this on everyone was my summary of the discussion with you."
That's pretty scientific, no proof to substantiate your summation.
Don't be hacked . You are setting yourelf up here by what you are saying.
" For some quite obsure reason even the majority of the christians do not take the bible as literally as you do..."
Uh,....got a stat for that, an article, some tea leaves?
Let me help you out.
Maturity, varies among Christians. Some are more commited to let the wisdom in the Word guide their lives than others, because of the maturing process. Experiences deepen their willingness to trust the Word. As it proves itself valid, confidence increases.
For those who claim to be Christians but do not take advantage of the benefits,...the wisdom, the promises, the assurances, the encouragement, well,... they are missing out.
Many scientists are quiet about their beliefs because it is (politically) lethal to even hint at such. That is a fact that can be documented, as your friend Mr. Dawkins found out.
That is why he was willing to illustrate or imply (and lable) all Christians or creationists, by the few pathetic you hear here.
All Christians are not like them, all "intellectuals" are not like you.
Come on Bug. Come on. You are smarter than this. Really.
MC, end of line for your request for quotes. I told you it is my summary of what you said, not a quote.
You are finely demonstrating your standard tactics here. Since you lack any content you are trying to attack form.
Don't expect any sympathy from me for the fact that religion has no place in science. The kind of crackpot bullshit you believe in is simply not compatible with being a scientist. Science is looking for answers, if you think you already have all the answers how do you do research?
Go, get some education and stop telling people that being uneducated and superstitious is a good idea.
Science: Science (from the Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge" or "to know") is the effort to discover, and increase human understanding of how the physical world works.
So, you are saying there is no unseen world? String Theory, M Theory says there is.
Are people part of this physical world?
Wouldn't figuring out how they work fall under the definition of science?
The fact that the Bible actually does address many of lifes situations is not a discredit to the Bible. It is however an agravation to those who resent the truths as expressed in those helps.
Looks like you're back at the helm of USS Bullshit 'n' Platitude again.
Happy Sailing Noah.
By the way, your inane ramblings on the likely findings of he LHC are funny.
It won't discover, prove or in any way discern God for you.
This is because as science explains more and more there is less and less need for religious explanations. Sorry Muffler, I know that irks you.
Originally way back when (or in your case now) everything was mysterious. Fire, rain, birth, death, all seemed to require the action of some kind of divine being.
As time has passed we have explained more and more in a purely naturalistic, scientific way. This doesn't actually contradict your religion, but it does takes away one of the original motivations for it as an explanation of everything and an answer for all questions. This is what you fail to comprehend.
If we put together something like a final theory from the results of the LHC, in which all the forces and the particles are explained and that theory also throws light on the origin of the Big Bang and gives us a consistent picture of cosmology, sorry but there will simply be less for your religion to explain.
It stays as a faith without need of proof.
You see as I have told you all along, religion has evolved along with science. It is something created by human beings, and as human beings learn more and more their religion changes. Or in your case not...
Anyway, today, especially in the more established religious sects in the West, parts of the USA excluded, most believers have learned to stop trying to explain nature religiously and leave that to science.
Why do you lag so far behind?
If you expect to find the presence of a grand designer in that final theory then think a little more...The more we learn about the universe the less sign we see of an intelligent designer
Isaac Newton thought that it would require an explanation in terms of the action of God to explain how the sun shone. Now (sit down as this may come as a shock to you) we know that it shines because of the heat produced by the conversion of hydrogen into helium in its core.
People who expect to find evidence of divine action in nature, in the origin of the universe or in the laws that govern matter, are probably going to be disappointed.
Oh...just thought you might want to know that the God particle was originally termed the Goddam Particle because of it's elusive nature but that was deemed too offensive
Plus they knew calling it the God particle would ensure enough creationist sheep would flock to actually learn something original about the origins of everything. Glad you're making the effort Scrambler
Bug said to MC, "I don't care to look up qoutes from you from a part of the discussion that is over. My statement that you deny eduaction and thinking and want to impose this on everyone was my summary of the discussion with you."
Dear friend you would not make a very good scientist. You are making statements of assumption and conjecture, just baseless opinions of WHAT I have said here and in the "Museum" thread.
Again you said about me and I quote, "...that you deny eduaction and thinking and want to impose this on everyone was my summary..."
My point about you being "mind dominant" is demonstraited in this quote.
Even though I have demonstraited the oposite position in many posts, your mind says I am the enemy and your default mind set is that all religions, Christianity particularly, DEMAND, stupidity and brain numbing obedience by all.
The facts are there Bug. Your heart should have told you, long ago, that my pursuits here and there are benign in nature and soulish in appeal.
I said earlier that wisdom flows only from your heart to your mind.
Your heart should have told you of your empty and baseless accusations. There should have been a comparision made when I tried to at least speculate on things scientific. No, my attemp to move loser to you, was impossible for you to grasp. Rejection outright is your reaction.
You find it almost impossible to acknowledge even the littlest thing in a positive or friendly light. Your mind is so totally dominant that it renders you handicapped. I take no joy in this observation, even though I have been the victim of it. It would take your heart to appreciate even that statement.
MC
Mako said, "Originally way back when (or in your case now) everything was mysterious. Fire, rain, birth, death, all seemed to require the action of some kind of divine being. "
" As time has passed we have explained more and more in a purely naturalistic, scientific way. This doesn't actually contradict your religion, but it does takes away one of the original motivations for it as an explanation of everything and an answer for all questions. This is what you fail to comprehend."
Mako, Nice to hear from you again.
I was searching my memory of the Word. It does not explain or try to explain how all natural things occurred, though it does describe events as witnessed. It does not address Dino's directly, or most other topics you might find of personal interest. For those with a sincere interest in explaining these events, frustration is the by-word, in the midst of attempts to explain.
It does mention many times, nations or people groups that worshiped gods other than Jehovah God, the God of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac. These very well could be the gods of fire or rain or others, you spoke of.
It appears that at an appointed time, the real God decided to establish His presence. In most cases God destroyed or removed believers in false gods from the picture, in favor of His people. He even allowed His people to be dominated when they were enticed to go after other gods, finally setting them free from that dominance ( Egypt and Romans) when they had convinced Him of their repentance.
I find that the majority of the Word relates to people versus paleontology. It is full of life annecdotes that teach us how God thinks and how we should think. It is a textbook to understand Him and ourselves better.
From OT to NT it is about us. It is to be related to now. How to live now.
It also rings so true in the actual applications of these instructions, that the admonitions to remember the Spiritual author are received easily by the experienced practitioner of His instructions.
I have no problem with greater understanding of natural things. The caution I express toward myself as well as you is that which will keep us both open to discovery. " There is more."
Christians everywhere will tell you, just about the time they think they have God figured out, something happens to put Him "outside the box." We are constantly being reminded that if we build a box, WE are the only one's in it.
As you graciously said earlier, "This doesn't actually contradict your religion, but it does takes away one of the original motivations for it as an explanation of everything and an answer for all questions."
I can say honestly and maybe unobjectively, if that is possible, I have never sought answers to natural phenomenon, in the Bible.
It may have some answers about those things, but with the exception of Jesus' reference to " Red sails in the morning, sailors take warning, Red sails at night, a sailors delight", I have no other verse I can refer to relating to the explaination of natural science occurances in the Bible.
This brings us to a divergence of interests, even though I believe we are bound together by our indivdual forte's. We both live in the natural yet our behavior is spiritual in basis.
Even if we look at the mind as the computer it is, thought, memory, values, are only stored there. Wonderful as it is, indespensable as it is, it is subject to the input it receives. That makes it subject to it's creator or programmer.
How I then use that multi-gig unit leaves its successful use up to me. The real me. An entity separate in nature from the physical. An entity that uses the physical, dwells in the physical, but yet in some ways is not limited by the physical.
The Bible IMHO, has answers to life delema's. Just about any problem man faces, is addressed there. Is that the apparent priority, mankind? It seems dramatically so.
Does that negate mankind's pursuits of understanding? NO, I think man's discoveries reflect on God's amazing creation, in the same way a successful son mirrors his father's part in shaping his motivations and values.
One thing to consider is that a son's failures also reflect on Dad. If the son has a second chance he may in fact redeem himself, once more a compliment to his father. To do so, the son must feel he can over-come his wrong decisions or choices. If his father forgives him first, the mental- emotional obstacles fall away, enhancing his chances dramatically.
The above happens. It can be seen a simply a fathers love for his child or the perspective can be shifted to reflect God's plan and that we and our circumstances most often reflect the Spiritual as illustrated in the Word.
Does the Bible literally have answers for everything? Of course not. Does it constantly deal with the heart of mankind, absolutely.
So, we study Natural Science for things "outside " of man. We study the "science" of human behavior by examining the real man, the spiritual side, as influenced by and in light of, the programing he has received, ...to answer your most recent question.
I remember one time, my dad was working on his car. He showed me this very small man shaped snap clip from the carburator. He asked, " Do you know what this is called?" I was thirteen or so. Of course I did not know. He said, " This is called a Jesus pin." He laughed, "Because when you drop it, you say, "Jesus". He laughed, pinching the "little man" in his greasy finger tips, eyebrows raised, at his venture into stand-up comedy...it is a simple but fond memory. Thanks for reminding me of it.... Dad was a deacon in church all of his adult life. He was a gift to me. He showed me what God was really like.
MC, you are lame and a hypocrite. You constantly try to sum me up as a cold and heartless person, but you deny me summing up you?
And you did not try to "move closer to me", you just popped up with things that sounded "scientific" to you and you thoguht it a great achievement to present some nutcases who knew a couple four syllable words to mix up bullshit to prove their religious beliefs.
I asked you several times to think and to question, to look at real world evidence and compare it, try to understand, but you are always defaulting back to your stupid book.
"It appears that at an appointed time, the real God decided to establish His presence. In most cases God destroyed or removed believers in false gods from the picture, in favor of His people"
Your 'real' god is the true one yeah? The conclusion being that for you no one else's faith is valid. This makes the rest of what you say in terms of searching for man's soul and spirituality completely hypocritical
If the bible does not attempt to explain how all natural things occurred then why in the name of living fuckwit are there people who call themselves creationists who constantly try to say it does this very thing!?
You are all over the place here...
The bible is rule book of how to behave, written for man by man
It doesn't have all the answers as people are still killing each other because they (like you) believe their god is the 'real' one and all the others are false
I said above, " That makes it subject to it's creator or programmer. "
I was refering to all input, parents, relatives, personal experience, the bad the good, and instincts that (I believe) were designed into us. For instance, from the beginning, ( when ever that was) man has had the fight or flight survival instinct.
But don't let this addendum distract from the original post.
Bug said, "MC, you are lame and a hypocrite. You constantly try to sum me up as a cold and heartless person, but you deny me summing up you?
Jesus, Mary and Joseph....................!
Bug, for the last 5 months, including today,...., YOU, and others have done nothing BUT sum me up. Remember??????????
No you don't because degrading me, (or others) is a liberty exercised so freely by you that you have become desensitised to it's negative affect. The illogical, self defeating, critcism is not seen and can not be detected by a mind set on it's default reactions.
That is why I said, " Rejection outright is your reaction. " and " You find it almost impossible to acknowledge even the littlest thing in a positive or friendly light. Your mind is so totally dominant that it renders you handicapped."
I have never said or insinuated that you are heartless. It is demonstrable that you think so, a confirmation that you are missing the point of my posts.
I am saying your heart and it's ability to guide or influence you through wisdom, has been greatly suppressed. There is always a reason, though I will forego giving an opinion as to why.
My experience, demonstrated through your responses, is evidence of my point.
I said, "It appears that at an appointed time, the real God decided to establish His presence. In most cases God destroyed or removed believers in false gods from the picture, in favor of His people"
Mak said, "Your 'real' god is the true one yeah?
Response: Reviewing what the God of Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac did for His people puts Him in the lead, on top, above, without compare to, ALL the other gods, and their people, that resisted His people.
Their gods did not protect them, in the least, against the Israelites and their God. For years, since 1948, God has done the same for Israel.
You said, "The conclusion being that for you no one else's faith is valid."
Response: NO, that is your biased imagination at work, again.
I do not have a need or a competitive motivation to judge a person, who believes differently than I do, (although you guys have certainly tempted me). I know there are many beliefs that promote a peaceful life while living. That's fine for here. What about after "here".
Realistically, can I even talk to all of those "other" believers? Duh, no,...I don't think so. Do I wish them happiness and peace, yesssss,......I dooooo.
If I could get to know them and them me, becoming friends maybe, would I hope for a chance to share my beliefs with them? Absolutely!
Would I listen as they did the same with me, yesssss, Whyyyyyy? Because,...I could learn what they need! Why do they need their relationship with their god? What do they receive from the relationship? That's a lot different than the judgemental picture you are painting.
You said, " This makes the rest of what you say in terms of searching for man's soul and spirituality completely hypocritical.."
??????????? What?
You said, "If the bible does not attempt to explain how all natural things occur..."
Response: Discriptions are general. There are few actual scientifically accepted, elaborate, details.
Mako said, "Then why are there... " people who call themselves creationists who constantly try to say it does this very thing!? "
Response: Correction, they believe the content. They use scientific points to support their belief. Most you probably reject outright, simply because you would never allow yourself to consider them. Mind set......
My God has not asked me to kill anybody. Although I think I hear Him reminding me of the movie Jaws. LOL
No,...the killers are the other guys. I guess you guys are not into current events. That's OK. Studying bones and Amoeba's or maybe a ride on the Collider, will solve the world's problems. Get a life!
IT'S ABOUT GOOD VERSUS EVIL YOU GUYS. There is no neutral position. It is pathetic that as smart as you are, you can not grasp that.
Then again, ...maybe you do get it. You have chosen already!
" Reviewing what the God of Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac did for His people puts Him in the lead, on top, above, without compare to, ALL the other gods, and their people, that resisted His people."
Not to believers of other faiths it doesn't mate. Not by a long chalk. It's sad and divine arrogance to hold that 'leadership' view. In doing so you cannot but demean any other god
How did your god protect people on 9-11? Oh yeah, I forgot, Islamists are the only ones who have ever killed in the name of religion... Remind me again how many phrases there are in the booble which command destruction, death and early demise of non-believers?
So your response that Creationists believe only the content of the booble then if you are not a creationist then I assume you DON'T believe the content in the booble then? Or you only pick and choose what you want to adhere to...?
All a little convenient wouldn't ya say?
Creationists use non-science to retro-fit. It is not for me to reject their science, it is for peer review to continue to do that. However, most people with an inkling of education reject creationist science because it is scientifically stupid
It is not about good versus evil, it is about using the brain evolution gave you to reformat the dogma and arrogance that nurture has instilled. You were not born a christian, you were made one
I said, "ALL the other gods, and their people, that resisted His people."
again, " THAT RESISTED HIS PEOPLE, was Thee qualifier.
Evangelists worldwide gain converts by declaring what God and Jesus did for them. They share testimonies of others sometimes. They succeed NOT by demeaning the beliefs of the locals, but by their own enthusiasm about God.
As I said a long time ago, most of the time converted locals become the one's who reach out to those who are like they were. They have similar life experiences and can relate.
The Leadership position (of God) was established long ago, and continues today evidenced by the existance of Israel, as one example.
I care about people who believe in other gods. I do, because their god is not the God of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac. I respect their committment. How much better if they were believing in the God of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac.
I do not believe their god is real in the least, though it is to them. HOWEVER, ...if they believe it is (real), their belief is faith and is creative by my Gods design.
It is not their god that accomplishes anything. It is the use of the same tool God provides to me, that being,.. Faith.
" Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things unseen." Hebrews 11:1
At some time in their future, they will hear the Gospel and hopefully will grasp what has really been happening.
There is plenty of evidence that non-believers that operate in God's principles, will reap the benefits, as God has defined them in His Word. Yeah! Unbelievers. Why?
Because the principles are eternal concepts that function always. "Give, and it shall be given unto you..." "Reap what you sow" etc.
9-11? "Some escaped, some were received unto Him, IF they appealed to Him, even in the last momments. He is merciful. They were happy, once there, although we (families) were not.
God never loses. We are the prize. No matter what the circumstances of our demise as a Saved person.
Early demise? That is the Muslim militants, and their book.
Mak said " So your response that Creationists believe only the content of the booble,..."
Uh sorry, your memory must be suffering. Never said that.
Mak said, " then if you are not a creationist then I assume you DON'T believe the content in the booble then?
Well, that is YOUR position,... right? Mak you are trying too hard, better give up.
You said, "Or you only pick and choose what you want to adhere to...? "
Mak the Bible is looked at as a Will and Testament. "Old" and "New", (as in revised).
I know what to believe according to the conditions of the New Will. That includes things that are still in the Older Will. It excepts some things, rendering them no longer of effect. Got it? This is real elementary legal stuff.
You said it was not about good and evil Huh? Where did all those Dogma and Arrogance principles and concepts come from? My parents, and where from there? Their parents, and so on.
Sooner or later as you investigate their values and family history, God or NO God becomes evident as a factor.
To use that evolved brain, input has to occur to guide the process of redirection. Maybe you are ready for some new input?
Right, you were not born an atheist, you were made one.
Waffler - these are your own words in response to my assertion that creationists attempt to hijack science and retro-fit it to the booble... You said
"Correction, they believe the content"
So what was it about poor memory, or would you like to squirm a little on your position and come back with what you REALLY meant to say?
Let's just take a step back at this juncture to critically examine your dmeaning of those who follow other gods shall we?
This self perceived god superiority you seem posessed by is clearly demonstrated by the condescension you show in your assertion that "their belief is faith and is creative by my gods design"
Stultifying arrogance... YOUR belief is faith too and as such carries equal LACK of weight. I can't see how you are unable to compute this?
They would probably say that same thing about your faith so it's a constant irritating drone of warfare over who's god is coolest.
Here's an example for you - you also suggest that militant Muslims and 'their book' are the only ones preaching death. Clearly a fallacy when your new titiment booble states:
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw, a man's enemies will be the members of his own household"
Here's another goodie from your new booble:
"But those mine enemies which would not that I should reign over them bring hither and slay them before me"
Hmm nice.
So...you were saying that your booble is all nicey nicey and those nasty ickle bitty muswims are vewy, vewy bad people?
You idiot.
God has not protected Israel... A deliberately vague non-disclosure policy on their nuclear arsenal, a thinly veiled MAD policy based on use of that same arsenal, millions of dollars of US aid and weaponry, and a highly trained defence force have protected Israel.
God... had... fuck... all... to.... do... with... it...unless you class god as war or the threat thereof, in which case fair enough, war or the threat of it has protected Israel
ALL people born atheist, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US REGARDLESS OF COLOUR, CREED OR COUNTRY. Not one single child has ever been born knowing it was a follower of any religion. You are asanine to assume anything other than this.
Those who grow into religion have simply been nurtured and brainwashed as you were. You just like to sugar coat it with the phrase, "process of redirection"...
What is a convent school (if not a place where paedophiles go to teach)? It's the catholic equivalent of a Madrassah, that's what. A place of indoctrination.
A little sinister don't you think?
I can only change my position on atheism when you bring anything remotely real to the argument in favour of the existence of a little man in the clouds, as well as show me that it does any real good in the long term.
Why should I wish to devolve into a stupid non-thinker on that back of your ramblings and the booble? My brain has sufficiently developed not to allow that to happen. However you want to carry on with your burning bush preaching then fine.... You can remain as a loyal brandisher of crap
I suggest that this day and age sees more people laughing at your attempts to adopt the missionary position on a web forum
I can hear you now, "that's just more Bullshit MC,...Bullshit"
That's OK Bug. I'm glad you felt a part of the conversation.
Your questions, God of Abraham, Yes.
God will make Abraham a Father of Nations but Abe had no son and he was about 100. Sarah his wife about the same. God promised Abe and Sarah a child.
Sarah decided to offer her maid Hagar to Abe in order to give him a son. This was not God's plan. Ishmael was born. ( The future father of all Arabs).
God later caused Sarah (in her impossible old age) to be with child from intercourse with Abe, (in his impossible old age). She bore Isaac, The Child of Promise. A miracle child.
That difference is the reason for the conflict between the Arabs and Jews. They are actually half-brothers.
(re-posted a section from my post above as it's the simplest rebuttal here)
Mount crumbly, god has NOT protected Israel
A deliberately vague non-disclosure policy on their nuclear arsenal, a thinly veiled MAD policy based on use of that same arsenal, millions of dollars of US aid and weaponry, and a highly trained defence force have protected Israel.
God... had... fuck... all... to.... do... with... it
Uless you class god as war or the threat thereof, in which case fair enough, war or the threat of it has protected Israel
Stop feeding bullshit stories and fables Muftymoron - they only serve to show you for the fundamentalist you clearly are
You are sadly void of Jewish history, especially the last 60 years.
Look at the circumstances of the 1967 Six Day War, for one example.
Most of the things (technology) you have used to discredit my post, were brought on the scene in the last 30 years and most less.
Their enemies (everybody around them) have seen defeat time and time again, against the much smaller forces of Israel.
Never-the-less, one thing you said is true. At this point, yes the enemies of Israel do have to consider our involvement also. If there is ever an attack on Israel, there will be one on us simultaneously .
We support Israel first because our Christian beliefs dictated it. Secondly, it became strategically wise to have a presence there.
One of the dangers they face is the politically correct crowd wanting to dump our policies toward Israel, although, God does not need us, for them to be protected.
We are the one's who benefit from protecting them.
So, you are right, God did have all to do with it.
It troubles me about you minnow, you keep saying things that agree with me?
Oh wow you really are showing yourself up a little bit here. After WW2 the British mandate of palestine allowed for partition and the existence of israel, she has been supported by the allies ever since. Not god.
"We support israel first because christian beliefs dictated it"..?
Gimme a fucking break you pompous ass. It is solely for strategic reasons and NOT to do with god, although if that's what you really think then more fool you
You are so naive it's unreal. But, then rampant religion does turn people into unthinking boobs doesn't it? Clearly yes iin your case
The only reason she is the focus of so much hatred by the arab states is simply because she rests on lands that were taken from palestinians. No doubt you'd be a little pissed if someone else came and said they were dividing your homeland and allowing foreigners to dictate your life to you
USS Liberty must have been gods will right?
I agree with pretty much nothing you say because most of it is not really bright, just blind. I am glad you are troubled - it may make you think a little more
Mako, give it up. According to MC everything is gods will. So even us contradicting him and showing how stupid his stuff is are controlled by gods will. No harm can come to him since we are here just to test the strength of his faith.
MC, praying for me to gain the "insight" and "find faith" is to me a grave insult. It would mean that I would have to lose maybe half my IQ and 99% of my education (reading and writing plus basic math is maybe OK?).
Carry on with your ignorant life, but please do not harm any innocent children by indoctrinating them with your medieval beliefs.
Minnow said, "After WW2 the British mandate of palestine allowed for partition and the existence of israel, she has been supported by the allies ever since. Not god. "
Uh, remember this phrase, "void of Jewish history".
Minnow the obvious does not always represent the truth. Strategic yes, beliefs yes also, hidden within the obvious. Why? Because the Doctrinal reason would be objected to by the liberal unbelievers. So why not rest on "Strategic".
Dear Bug, losing half might help, the wisdom that would come would super-charge that education, as long as it is not clouded by pre-conceived hinderences.
"One must lose his life, (thinking) to gain it, (a life)."
Bug, we are our worst enemy. God is trying to get our "stuff" out of the way.
Mounty moron - it was the Israeli preemptive air attack that ensured air superiority for the rest of the war that then allowed the better trained, equipped and more highly motivated force to emerge victorious
Simply posting an article that says 'the finger of god did it' only goes to reinforce what you WANT to believe in the face of all that is rational
Every armed conflict has 'miracles' occur. It is called the fog of war. Shit happens that is not planned. If you wish to call that the hand of god then once again you show your immense naivete
By suggesting someone lose half their eduction you are simply uttering a clarion call to return to the dark ages where religion caused even more problems than it does today
Really, you should try to free yourself of the shackles of religion. You will think a lot more clearly and objectively and start to see your very insiginificant place in the cosmos
"Dear Bug, losing half might help, the wisdom that would come..."
Thank you for acknowledging that religion and stupidity go hand in hand. I was talking about losing half of my IQ, which would probably still put me ahead of the average deeply religious person.
So how does wisdom come from being stupid? How does one learn by being ignorant? How does one understand by clinging to blind faith? How does one evolve by contantly looking backwards?
Religion is a thing from the past that still hangs around to haunt the present. It is one of the nasty things the stupid do to annoy the intelligent. A cozy shell of ignorance to isolate the stupid from the reality.
Go and whack yourself with your bible as much as you want to.
I am looking forward to a day when religion will be accepted as a deranged state of mind and treated accordingly.
Clarifying: "One must lose his life, (thinking) to gain it, (a life)."
One must give up what he has always thought was right, what has defined him, in order for the real way, truth, and life to be his.
I was not saying we give up the process of thinking in general, as you have so often mistakenly accused me of doing. In fact it is to be a very conscious decision to reject the old for a new awareness that expands all the areas one thought he had a grasp on. Your horizons broaden dramatically, especially with the sincere pursuit of your real interests.
Again, clinging to pre-conceived values or attitudes disqualifies.
It is not a new awareness you are suggesting we embrace. It is an old one which has caused more death and suffering than anything else known
In fact you NARROW your horizons by embracing your faith because then you feel you have all the answers and become a simple follower.
That would be sad
My view of religious nuts is not preconceived. Remember I was not born a christian, I simply gained a decent education (in a christian school I might add) that made me see it for the hypocrisy and bullshit it actually is.
Oh, the blind man is again trying to teach color to the seeing.
MC, I will be very blunt now: Your level of education and thinking compared to mine is so primitive that you are not in the position to give any advice to me, except possibly when asked the way to the next toilet.
Your continuing preaching of "gving up old knowledge" and "letting god into my life" is an insult. Your "knowledge" is that of people who lived more than 2000 years ago, and even then those who wrote your book of faith were not the brightest lights around.
The "values" you see as an exclusive to your religion are either irrelevant or are part of any normal, socially functional human being.
Bug said, "MC, praying for me to gain the "insight" and "find faith" is to me a grave insult. It would mean that I would have to lose maybe half my IQ and 99% of my education... "
MC said "Dear Bug, losing half might help, the wisdom that would come would super-charge that education, as long as it is not clouded by pre-conceived hinderences.
Bug said, "Thank you for acknowledging that religion and stupidity go hand in hand. I was talking about losing half of my IQ, ..."
So, was I.
Mako said, "It is not a new awareness you are suggesting we embrace. It is an old one which has caused more death and suffering than anything else known."
For such a bright guy, and I am sure you really are, you are mired in such antiquated thinking that it surprises me. Christianity is much different today than at any time in history.
In a contrasting way, the Muslim religion has become "again" a threat to the world. I will modify that and say Muslim extremists.
Mako said, " I simply gained a decent education (in a christian school I might add) that made me see it for the hypocrisy and bullshit it actually is. "
Hypocrisy and bullshit are characteristics of man. Not God.
The problem is "they" created such a distraction in the eyes of a bright young person (student) that any real understanding or faith you might have discovered were obliterated. And so, you have became an unbeliever.
Dear Bug said, " MC, I will be very blunt now: Your level of education and thinking compared to mine is so primitive that you are not in the position to give any advice to me, except possibly when asked the way to the next toilet.
Well there you go again, that MIND of yours is ruling and reigning, dominating your being to such an extent that it has reduced you to ........... a very blunt person. Isn't that the opposite of sharp?
Look, my dear bluntman, I have never said anything about giving up "knowledge". But,.....you did not get it. Heart Bug, heart.
Let me get to the point, ( I guess that makes me sharp), LOL. (Not bad for a retarded dim wit, uh yeah)
You need a toilet my friend. You are so full of it. LOL. I'm sorry really, it is just ridiculous the way you are going on.
Giving up old ways, Bug, Giving up old ways!
Believing that those people, whose writings have been around for thousands of years, should be discarded as irrelevant is unbelieveably .......presumptuous! The writings are part of us today BECAUSE they have proven themselves relevant and desirable.
" I will use the simple to confound the wise."
Yes Bug, those guys 2000 years ago were just Doctors, Pharasees, Tax collectors, businessmen, Kings, and yes, even Carpenters. Although they were dim wits, they traveled the known world, or were known by the world.
Yeah Bug, they didn't hold a candle to someone as bright as you or even stupid little me. Yeah, right, thanks for the news-flash.
It is amazing that we, decided their writings were unbelieveably congruous. Why? Whoa man, God,.....said the same things to different people 5-6-700 years apart, until Christ, then agreement was more plentiful and widespread. Why? Because after His death, they could read their Law and Prophets and see where Jesus and what happened to Him exactly, had come true.
Mako, Let's face it. YOU are still pissed off at the people who showed you such a bad example in Christian school. Man, get over it. There is more! So much more. AND,..you don't have to give up ANYTHING, except opinions based on THEM!
MC
Bug, Saw your pic. Nice bow. I shot pistol for OSU. Did pretty well.
Dear Bug said, " MC, I will be very blunt now: Your level of education and thinking compared to mine is so primitive that you are not in the position to give any advice to me, except possibly when asked the way to the next toilet.
My point was, " You need a toilet my friend."
The concepts, thoughts, principles, I have been trying to impress upon you, these past 5 months, are in fact, directions to the toilet. You are in desperate need of a visit. AND, to prove it, you will see this as an attack.
Does anyone EVER tell you anything? What is your IQ anyway?
If it is so valuable, why has it focused your self-esteem level to be equated with your mental ability? WHY? Because it is only a measurement of mental ability.
You are like a 1000 horsepower car, with a 500 pound weight. Totally amazing in concept. Totally disasterous when uncontroled.
Ultimately, in this life, you have to be driven in a reasonable manner, 99% of the time, NOT violating the ( mind to heart) power to weight ratio limitations. That necessity renders all of your abilities, your engineering and pazzaz, to the equivilent of a VW, and at best a BMW. Oh, the potential is a beautiful thing, until you find it wrapped around a telephone poll.
Yes, you have to travel the same roads (of life) as we do. We may even appreciate the finess as that Beamer passes by. But these days, we'll get there too, but much more economically.
So who has the real advantage here?
Most of us in life may be VW's. But as I remember per my multiple experiences, we are a heck of a lot of fun, and real practical, and engineered pretty good, a reflection of value, in the hearts of most.
Hopefully, the guy who was smart enough to afford the Beamer, has a "Bug", hidden in his garage, that he can drive when he sees it really is,... the wise thing to do.
It will NEVER be mind over character my young bowman.
It is more the problem of bullshit over what matters, your religion (and others) has caused many wars.
So to sum this up: Losing half your brain capacity is according to you a good starting point for becoming an adapet to your religion. You believe the bible by the word, but you pick which parts to use (old versus new testament). All other religions are false and you pray for everybody to see the light and convert to your god, but if they don't it is gods plan in any case. You don't understand science, yet you either reject its findings or decide they are not significant, which is a quite stunning feat when not understading what they mean.
Any positive aspects to your sect?
It is very interesting that when you see that you can simply not cope with me or mako and several others here intellectually, you turn to telling us that we lack social/human capabilities, don't have a heart etc.
What does believing in bullshit have to do with being a good/social/caring/loving/compassionate human being? As I said before, the values you see as being such exclusive inventions of your religion are either irrelevant or are standard civilized human behaviour.
What I was saying, (tongue in cheek), was, you may be too smart for your own good! The simplicity of the Gospel has always confounded "brilliant" types, as your opinion, of the Good News, reveals.
I believe it all. The Bible has determined for me, as I explained in a recent post, what applies today, ie. Old Will, New Will. It is strickly a legal matter no different than commonly practiced in Law Offices today.
All other religions are not false, because the people involved with them MAKE them real, by faith in them. They differ however, from Christianity, in such a way as to leave opportunity for belief in the man Jesus to be an option for them.
Everyone wants to believe his deity is real. The history of Jesus, complimented by the true prophesey's of the Old Testament that confirm His Deity, are good news to many who hear and understand. Most who awaken, are happy to trade in their former deity for the real thing.
All will have an opportunity to hear the Gospel. Whether they awake to it, is not our doing or privilege, one only comes to God by the Holy Spirit. THAT is why your heart is so important Bug.
I do understand many things scientific, just not the same things as you, or maybe at the same depth. To share this position with most others in this world, is not a bad thing. To assume we are all morons does raise questions about our judges though.
How we prioritize our lives is a personal privilege last time I checked.
Noah doesn't validate my commitment, Jesus does. Because Jesus spoke of Noah, I believe Noah was real or the lessons involved in Noah were powerful enough to serve a purpose in the Lord's teaching.
I believe there are undiscovered explanations that will reconcile our differences in the future.
You asked, " Any positive aspects to your sect?"
Yes, we have learned to love the unloveable, we were shown how.
I think I've been "coping" with you guys for about five months now. Has it not come to your attention YET, that I have said many times, "You guys are much smarter than I am in most ways" That I recognize your mental prowess! NO, you have not picked up on that yet.
WHY? Because it disarms you. Telling you guys that all this effort has been because I care about your souls, disarms you.
Responding to and accepting this effort as a good thing requires a calculation to take place in your heart, that you refuse to let compute! "This nutcase is just trying to get me to believe something I refuse to believe in!" There is too much evidence refuting that Bible stuff. If all that physiological bible stuff is a lie, then all of it is a lie! He's not offering me anything real, he is just a nut!!! Outright rejection.
Well, the earth was once flat, until something happened that proved otherwise. This time,.... it will be too late.
It doesn't have to be that way.
Your intention of discrediting my focus, as just a means of avoiding yours, because you are more intelligent and can "win" the day, illustrates your priorities. Hey, you are winning,.....and losing,.......at the same time.
Do you guys realize how similar our relationship has been to that of Jesus and His accusers. They hit, kicked, whipped, and abused Him. They called Him names and embarrassed Him, they falsely accused Him, they tried to put Him to death. But it wasn't unti; He decided, that He gave up the ghost.
In the end He said, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do."
I am not fit to tie His sandals, but I have learned this from Him. I must see what He sees, in order to understand what He understands. He saw what we see, in order to understand what we understand.
I have seen young and I have seen old. I have been both. I know what is needed in a person when I see it is missing.
The chicken or the egg. Then why do you not display them?
You said, "What does believing in bullshit have to do with being a good/social/caring/loving/compassionate human being? As I said before, the values you see as being such exclusive inventions of your religion are either irrelevant or are standard civilized human behaviour."
How do you expect me to display them? By telling you that I love you?
I would take you to the doctor since I think you are seriously deranged. Is that sufficiently compassionate for you?
You could finely fit Jesus sandals. If he did actually exist he was likely a guy just like you: One with a mission who thought he had seen something. His advantage was that back then there was no internet and no reliable recording of events, so his story could grow into something much bigger than the person who was the cause of it.
BTW: You do not disarm me at all by telling me you care for me, You just mildly annoy me by doing so. I also find it annoying when a human being of obviously inferior education level does even not try to improve himself because he is so stuck in his superstition that he is unable to move.
To all, "Were the Israelites set free by the Egyptians? Was there an exodus?
To Bug: You said, " I would take you to the doctor since I think you are seriously deranged. Is that sufficiently compassionate for you?"
It's a start. Thanks for the lift.
You said, " You could finely fit Jesus sandals. If he did actually exist he was likely a guy just like you: One with a mission who thought he had seen something."
He more than saw something. He was the event.
Anyone who has known a Jewish mother, knows how they think, toward their sons. In the first miracle, at the Wedding at Cana, Mary tries to provoke her son to do something about the lack of wine at the party. His reaction was so typical of a son, a Jewish son, who was being pushed by his mom to get on with his life. " Woman what does that have to do with us, My hour has not come yet." (Proof He knew Who He was.)
My point is this. Mary had told Jesus everything. By age 30, He knew who He was, a miracle child, spoken of by an angel, spoken of by the prophets. The confirmation is that Mary, knew what He was capable of, and simply told the servants to do, whatever He said to do.
Remember, History confirms the name of the High Priest, married to Mary's cousin, a barren woman, that was found to be pregnant, as a confirmation to Mary, of the Angel's words, when Mary was told of her future part in the coming of the Messiah. The cousin's child would be John the Baptist.
The historian Josephus writes of him.
Bug, why? " You just mildly annoy me by doing so."
Aren't these assumptions on your part? You said, " (I) also find it annoying when a human being of obviously inferior education level does even not try to improve himself because he is so stuck in his superstition that he is unable to move."
Bug, you surely don't think you are the first person to say the bible is a lie, that tried to prove it?
I've talked to you before about your blustering type statements. They make you look stupid. If you are the brain you claim to be, you must understand the concept of limited flow. In this case, the tube is narrow. You can not expect to understand, to force, logic through this tube. You have to back off the logic and grasp the simplicity. Logic is the real crap. Proof is the real blockage. Faith is the liquid plumber.
Remember, I said, the things I have been trying to share with you ARE the directions to the toilet. Take your bowvine with you.
Yeah right, faith is diarrhea that goes down the tubes fast when exposed to logic.
Discussing with you is similar to discussing with my 8 year old son (though he makes progress contrary to you): Everything has to be repeated again and again.
Since you are an adult I am not going to repeat stuff to you again. If you want to review my reasoning about religion then go to the "ruinmuseum" thread and read again what you have missed.
You are just again showing that you are rejecting education, knowledge, and thining. Of course you must, deep religion as yours can not survive any thinking and reasoning.
mako, the problem with what we say is that it is in many books, mc has a single book. Though his book is in several cases in conflict with reality it is much more convenient to have to read just a single book to know all possible answers.
It is a superstition because YOU say so? Right. LOL
You are the one who believes in superstitions. That puts you in a class of individuals who.... well, that explains alot about your inability to grasp "Faith".
What else are you superstitious about?
The only words that carry any weight are His. The fact that you think these are the words of man, again, disables you. If you were to examine the consistancy of these Words, and the elapsed time between when they were "given", the significance might dawn on you.
The prophesies given have come true.
Job, (the oldest book in the Bible) knew the earth was round before anybody.
Job 26:10 "He (God) has inscribed a circle on the surface of the waters, at the boundry of light and darkness. (I have heard this verse may have inspired Columbus.)
I mentioned on the Massive Asteroid thread, Mark's comment about stars falling and the four winds. Mark 13:27 quoting Jesus, He says,
"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened and the
moon will not give it's light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and
the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see
the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then
He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the
FOUR winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven."
My question there was," Aren't there four jetstreans, around the earth? Of course the answer is "Yes MC there are." OMG! Right!
There is knowledge of things in the Word that none of the writers could have known, yet they clearly express what we today know as facts. Were they geniuses? Not according to you guys! Not according to me either.
They were inspired to make these statements. There are so many of them, in the Bible, that it's credibility as an inspired book is accepted world wide and by people much smarter than you and I.
Do people question it? Yes! For centuries, man has tried to destroy it's credibility. Many of these people, while trying to prove it is a hoax or fairytale, have become true believers in it's devine content.
Minnow, our words might be of some value. His words are the treasure of the ages. He uses the simple to confound the wise. He shows us ourselves, not to condemn us but to lead us in a more valuable path. He is the author and finisher of our faith. In tests we grow stronger or we recognise our weakness.
With Him, a setback is a setup for a come back. His dealings with us are on a personal basis, intimate and revealing. No other god does that. When He points to something about you, you know it is true. If you learn you are rewarded. If you run from His help, you will suffer because of your own unwillingness to listen and learn. If you judge others, it will come back upon you.
He says, " I have good plans for you and not evil."
Your resistance to God is born out of a position that says one must have proof and that you,..must be able to comprehend Him, otherwise He can not possibly be real!
dear Minnow, why would you even want a God, (if you did), that you can figure out. Wouldn't you want Him to be so much smarter than you, that you could rest in His leadership of your life? Wouldn't you want a God that would encourage you to be all that you can be, and will help you do just that, in this life?
You do not understand. The less of us, the more of Him. Why? Because the more I think like He does, the better. Why? Because I am in a process to one, live successfully in this life, and to prepare for an eternal life that awaits me.
Once you believe in Him, you know, there is a life after this. He has actually come to provide us a chance to live, again, after this life is over. The "Born Again" experience is a faint shadow that provides a glimpse of His power.
As smart or strong or wise as you may be, it is nothing compared to what you could be, both in this life and after.
There is more, Mako. there is more Bug, there is more everyone,...
There is more.
MC
What He conceals, He conseals for His good purposes. Yet He says, there is nothing that is consealed that will not be revealed. Daily, things are being discovered.
One thing you say is correct: There is more. But that is the message you fail to understand. This universe we live in is much more interesting than your old book and your boring god-invention.
Not sure how you can claim I am superstitious when I fail to believe what you say. You are the one preaching faith remember, and if you go way, way back in our scribings I outlined to you the very definition of faith
Summarized: A fervently held belief in something which ultimately needs no proof. AKA a superstition
Why do you keep trying to prove god? Your faith doesn't need you to.
You said:
"Your resistance to God is born out of a position that says one must have proof and that you,..must be able to comprehend Him, otherwise He can not possibly be real!"
I have no resistance to god whatsoever as there is no indication fo his extistence. Any resistance I may have is actually based on the idiocy of ardent supporters like you who keep banging away about how omnipotent your religion is, and how you have answers for everything!
Oh that and the fact that your type of organised religion holds back scientific knowledge, kills people in pointless wars and removes the need for individual thought. Your failure to grasp these simple facts shows you to be incapable of the latter
By the way, regards your list of pointless quotes from the prophecies...Nostradamus probably gave as many good calls yet why would you not decide him to be the word of god instead?
Frankly the rest of your comment above was complete twaddle and offers nothing of interest worth responding to.
You once again demonstrate your ability to spout utter platitudinal crap in much the same way your forefathers no doubt did in the hopes of hooking another to your 'flock'.
We are evolving out of the need for religion but you remain a dodo
Why can't you grasp, "There is more", than you understand or believe, about the Bible and specifically about God?
I have no doubt there is more to this world than either of us understand.
You assume I only look at one book. Your lack determines my tools. For your problem, the Bible is the answer, combined with a personal experience with God.
In all your brilliance Bug, and you truly may be gifted, there is something missing in your life. Only you will ever be able to effectively admit to that, after some soul searching. Unfortunately we glide along not needing to search because things are good. Maybe life is perfect for you now but someday it won't be. At that time, my boring god-invention will be willing to listen if you call upon Him.
You won't be the first to say, "God if you are real,...?"
He will be there for you.
After He helps you, the Universe will be so much more impressive.
MC
PS: He does not require us to abstain from gaining understanding about the world around us. He does require we look within, to understand the truth about our own little universe, at the same time.
I believe you are right, in that man has had a need to look outside of himself for security or understanding.
Why that need,...is the question? I believe it is inherent in our design. The proof we see is, in fact, the many attempts to have gods. It is not weakness or ignorance but a need to look outside of ourselves, why, because in ourselves, we have only basic answers.
Answers are there but clearly in many cases, timing has been an important factor in, (Jehovah) God's plan to reveal them. Abraham was a moon worshiping Chaldean, when he had a profound and life changing experience. God spoke to him, told him to move, and Abraham did. It was accounted to Abraham as righteousness, by God. He is called the Father of Faith, the Father of the Jews.
No other God has compared to the God of Abraham.
In Abraham, the Jews and the Christians, by believing God, are to receive the blessing, in this life.
Christians, go one step further in identifying with Jesus of Nazareth, as Savior and God's resurrected Son, they receive the blessing of eternal life. Only Jews, (or anybody for that matter), who come to believe in Jesus, will inherit eternal life.
You say this is all man made but man, (Moses, Abraham, John the Baptist, Joshua, Gidion), has always been involved in God's plans. Why? Because eventually a, Son of Man/Son of God, Jesus, would come to show us God's love. (John 3:16). To show us God's image and ways, and willingness to give it all, for us.
Knowing our weaknesses, He makes it possible for us to work out our salvation, day by day, always willing to see each day as a new beginning.
" His mercies are new every morning." That's not a free ride, it is opportunity to change our ways and be blessed.
For us to think like He thinks, do as He would do, be all that we can be, is His goal, like any good Father. It is true, these aspects are people related, more than science related. But I have found the complexities of people to be very challenging, though you consider me simple.
Science is wonderful but what would it matter if not for people.
Science would continue without humankind because it makes everything tick.
That man is here to try to explain it is merely coincidental.
Man tries to understand it because it serves a higher purpose than servitude and control which is ultimately what religion is all about.
The humans who understand this are not shackled by any of the mental constraints brought about by religion, they actively seek for more knowledge about the incredible cosmos knowing full well that a little man ain't in the clouds
You on the other hand have it all worked out from a book, suggesting it to be the be all and end all, a complete history of everything and all good.
Clearly that is delusional in the face of all that scientific discovery continues to unravel.
Man invented god to control out of fear. If there is no man then there is no god
Science continues to 'be' whether we are here or not. If man is wiped off the face of the planet then by definition yur god won't exist because man is in his image. If man is no longer there then what the fuck does god have to do all day?
About as much as he has done for aeons... Nothing. Because he wasn't there.
You see my point?
All god is for is control. You are the perfect example of this as clearly religion has gripped you so hard you simply cannot grasp your failure to really understand the real world. This means you are under its control and fail to think more deeply
What is frankly sinister is your continued attempts to reach out and 'prove' that you are special because of god.
What he also fails to grasp is that his ranting at us is like an amoeba trying to tell a vertebrate lifeform form that this multi cellular stuff is not a good idea.
That proves you have no understanding at all about any religion let alone Christianity, the MOST people related religion in history.
"Your answers are always the same, boring, pointless, and long winded."
Boring when you don't get it, pointless when it's not YOUR point, and long winded because I am hoping to share enough that should at least make you consider what I am saying.
You continuously prove that you lack understanding of religion (any kind), you never looked into the history of religions and you rely only on sources that will provide information that supports you, never anything that brings up critical questions.
Been there, done that. There is absolutely nothing religion has to offer to me. I don't need the delusion of a higher entity that is watching over me, I have no problem with taking responsibility and I don't need some imaginary force to blame for anything bad that happens. Ignorant and fanatic humans are repsonsible for the majority of misery.
It's boring because there is nothing remotely interesting in what you say.
It pointless because there is no clear and individual thought in your head, all is pre-programmed by your handlers
It's long winded because you keep spouting platitudinal shit and quoting passages from the booble which only serve to further demonstrate your inability to be rational
Here is something interesting. One of many prophesies that came true.
The verses below were written in approximately 740 B.C., the writer was martyred around 680 B.C. He was born to a wealthy Jewish family. He did not know he was speaking of Jesus as we know Him today.
Isaiah 53: 5-11
"He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised and we did not esteem Him.
Surely our griefs he bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
By oppression and judgement He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
His grave was assigned with wicked men, ( to rot on the cross with the two thieves)
Yet He was with a rich man in His death, (see Below)
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth. ( He asked God to forgive them)
But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him to grief; (It was part of God's plan.)
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, ( For our sins)
He will see His offspring, ( In being resurrected)
He will prolong His days, (Through His disciples)
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many, (Forgiven because He bore our sins)
As He will bear their iniquities. (Our sins)
There are many exact points of identical occurance to this prophesy, but take just one of the many, that Jesus could not have orchestrated as He was dead and the fate of the crusified was to rot on the cross until their flesh could no longer hold the nails
Here is where it came to pass, 773 years later, 740 BC 33 AD.
(From above, "Yet He was with a rich man in His death, )
Matthew 28:57-50
When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named
Joseph, who himself had become a disciple of Jesus. This man went to
Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate ordered it to be given
to him. And Joseph took the body and wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock; and he
rolled a large stone against the entrance of the tomb and went away.
Rational? You mean to be filled with self sufficient unbelief! No thanks.
So the many times modified book of fairy tales does support its own story, surprising. Though even this is very vague, in the same league as Nostradamus, only clear to the ones who already have decided that it is there because it must be there.
Rational comes from the latin word ratio and means reasonable and logicical (ratio = mind). Things that obviously elude you completely and which you just rejected.
Remind me, if I have forgotten some previous info. Were your parents atheists?
You talk about me "deciding " something is there. You have decided something is NOT there. The difference is I have something outside of my own opinion to base my decision on.
The above quotes are so accurate, Nostradamus is not even in the same league. It is only a convenient mis-comparison that allows you to dismiss the evidence. These texts, and their accuracy have been protected by the Jews for centuries.
Your apparent belief in some orchestrated Bible conspiracy to "make it work", just so billions of people could be deceived into a state of zombie-like obedience is laughable. It is void of "Rationality" but full of paranoid denial.
The quotes above are only one comparison of hundreds that can be and have been found. That is the fact.
Bug you believe nobody of any intelligence has attempted to prove what you believe. Well, they have and they failed. They were not able to disprove the legitimacy of the OT prophesies and the fact that they were fulfilled in the New Testiment, most often in ways that Jesus could not have possibly influenced.
Jesus once said of the city (Jerusalem), to His disciples, there would be a day when not one stone would be upon another. 70 years later, long after His death and resurrection, the Romans literally destroyed the city just so. Not one stone was left upon another. Even the "Wailing wall" we see today, has been reconstructed from the stones that were torn down back then.
Isaiah 7:14 (700 years before Christ)
"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign; Behold a virgin will be with
child and bear a son, and she will call His name Emmanuel.
God does not have to be reasonable or logical. He is God.
He still loves you and will until you die. THAT is not logical. However there is a catch.
If you have not received His gift of salvation through His Son , before your death, your fate will be sealed by your decision to reject Him. He WILL reject you.
You had better find some books by those who tried to prove the bible false.
"Accuracy of the bible", my, my, you are a real comedian. Exactly what do you need to drink, inhale, etc. to come to the conclusion that these vague texts are accurate?
But I guess sufficient faith even allows you to believe in a deeper meaning of a telephone book.
The problem is not me not believing your bullshit, the problem is you never questioning anything within your faith.
The parts of the bible relating to Jesus have been written many years after the claimed date of his death, no surprise there are prophesies that came true several years after his death.
Minnow said, "No one needs to find the bible false. It is."
LOL, LOL, LOL! Somebody said you were smart. Not!
Bug said, " The parts of the bible relating to Jesus have been written many years after the claimed date of his death, no surprise there are prophesies that came true several years after his death."
OMG it's a conspiracy!!! They all knew we would compile a text (Bible) including all this stuff. That we would find the Dead Sea scrolls, and would change them to "make it all work!" The disciples knew Jesus wasn't real so they allowed themselves to be crusified, killed various ways, just to maintain the sham of Christianity.
You guys are ...................
You both are a product of someone's pathetic unbelief. They will be judged for leading you astray.
Just remember, you have heard the appeal, and rejected it outright.
Oh, I am so sorry, of course you are right, it is in the bible and the bible is right since the bible says it is right and sice this is written in the bible it is right since the bible says so.
Unfortunately to only other evidence that supports the bullshit in your bible are sources that have been faked by fanatics like you. But since they usually lacked sufficient knowledge of the past (just like you) the fakes can be proven as such.
The bible is a fairy tale book that had been written and edited to "guide" the faithful masses. Of course fanatics let themself being crucified, I guess you would too?
You are the product of age old stupidity, blind faith, rejection of reasoning and logic. You are the one who is pathetic and disgustingly so.
Heard the appeal? Will be judged? By you or your god invention? Oh, sorry, it was not even your invention, you got it second hand.
When you want to present some reasoning or logic, go ahead. All I have heard from you guys is blanket denial.
Mind dominant outright denial.
One good thing for you guys. God might have compassion on you because He knows all the crap that you have been taught and who, taught it.
The bad thing is, throughout these posts, I have shared His story and the opportunity that exists to anyone who can see who Christ is, the Gospel, The Good News. So far they have won, ....you have lost.
I've honestly lost nothing, for where your religion is concerned there was nothing actually there in the first place to find. Other than bullshit and constant incantation as you demonstrate above.
Bug said, " it was education that did it, and a refusal to ingest the religious crap that was obviously force fed to you early on
As I said, " God might have compassion on you because He knows all the crap that you have been taught and who, taught it."
I was 32 when I came to my senses.
God's got your number guys.
" Those that are not of the Spirit can not understand things of the Spirit."
I Corinthians 2:14 " But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."
You are right, you can't lose what you never possessed.
How useful that the bubble also has verses that "foretell" that there will be people who will not belive its stories.
MC, we did present you multiple sources to inform yourself and we were trying to answer your questions and help you understanding things that your religion just declares to be "gods way" or a "mystery". Your reaction was to revert to your puny book and continue to quote bullshit from it.
Mako said, "So far your god has shown no worth whatsoever, hence the bitch ain't on my number list. "
In Matthew 10:32-33 Jesus said, " Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven." 33
" But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
John 15:22-25 Jesus speaking said, "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 "He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 "If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well. 25 " But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in the Law, " They hated Me without a cause."
Well guys, His score is all that counts. I am sure " the bitch" will remind you of that.
Bug said, " How useful that the bubble also has verses that "foretell" that there will be people who will not belive its stories."
What the fuck are you on? It can't be doing you any good that's for sure. By the way, continuing to quote this risible shit in no way helps your case...
Oh woe is me!" AMAZING Minnow, you finally got it!!!! NOT,.... LOL
You must be saved in order to repent. So, there is NO doubt I have never asked you to repent. So that means YOU are the only one ranting.
Just had a revelation. You guys and Bill Ayres are pals. He is afraid of believers also.
Maybe Europe is falling for this Socialist crap but I am hoping BO is seen for what he is. He is ready to sell us out here in the USA.
It has never been so clear that the Democrats (at least the one's in power) have sold their souls to Socialism. Just to win an election I might add.
I am sure there are conservative Dem's out there, that do not really want a new Russia on US soil.
BO has told everybody what they want to hear, but once elected, he will do what he is told, directly by the Dem's and they by the Media Giants (whoever they really are). The media is not supporting him for nothing! They know the influence they wield over many in this country. They want to be President. If he rebels, they will JFK him. The Dem's were in power back then, if you recall. As they were with Bobby, and MLK. As they were when they started (escalated to be exact) the Vietnam War. And because JFK approved the asassination of the TU brothers in Vietnam, they set the stage for their own elimination later, by forces in our country. Our country has been descending ever since.
It was during those years that God was taken out of schools and forbidden in government, that abortion was made legal. And if you read the decision of Roe vs Wade, the court only said the Texas law was too staunch in it's postion. That a more considerate law would be more in line with the constitution. Life of the mother, Rape, Incest, would have held up in the SC.
Why in the heck didn't Texas pass a law that complied with that ruling???
50 million babies have been killed. BO wants to pass the Freedom of Choice Law, totally eliminating ANY restrictions on abortion!!!!
Did you know MLK was a republican? Did you know the Repub's were founded on an anti-slavery platform. The first Republican President, Lincoln, abolished slavery.
Our enemies are definitely afraid of Mac. He won't put up with their crap.
My guess is that you guys think BO is The Man. Figures.
I have been to Russia many times. Socialism does not work. I have seen the results first hand. Most of their country is in a time warp in the 50's. Their idea of a super highway is a three lane gravel road, comparable to an Ohio county road at the very best. Many buildings in moderate size cities still have outhouses or latrines. Holes in the ground surrounded by cement.
If anybody knows squat, they do.
Of course you guys are wondering "OK, when is he going to spring it on us?"
Because America has left it's principles behind, we are grasping at straws to stay afloat during this crisis. Desparate people do desparate things. Like to consider trusting our nation to an inexperienced man like BO.
Whats worse, we are learning daily more and more troubling things. We have become so partisan that whatever truth we may be learning, we reject outright. It is insanity. The idea of trusting this ENTIRE government to the Democrats is suicide. Total lunacy.
Mac has terrible handlers. He has missed many chances to expose BO.
I will close with this one.
It should never have been asked what BO saw in Ayres!!!! Poor judgement is too easy to explain away.
It should have been, "What did Bill Ayres, being the man he is, believing the way he does, what did Bill Ayres see in BO, that Ayres and his wife would support BO??????? It had to be something they identified with! GREAT!
You guys better "pray" (right) that McCain gets elected. That is if there is any chance you are NOT Socialists.
Otherwise, everything that I see happening has been foretold. One World government etc. It's all on the horizon.
What gets me is that this stuff was foretold centuries ago, it is coming to pass and you guys STILL can not see the significance, that the Bible particularly Jesus, knew what He was saying. He told us, to warn us, to NOT get excited, it is God's plan, and we are safe. He will return when everybody trys to destroy Israel.
Is BO going to help that happen. Rev. Jessy Jackson thinks so.
Hardly imaginable, but you have now sunk even further in my regard to you.
Full feldged screaming idiot, and asshole on top of that.
People like you are the major problem of this planet: Dogmatics with not even a remote grasp of reality.
Actually it is quite simple to identify a US politics legasthenic: They constantly accuse someone of being a "liberal" or a "socialist" while not having a remote idea what that really means.
That little video of yours just shows that there are stupid people in the world, so what? You are one of them, you just believe in some other extreme.
The republican party or its followers are not doing any less stupid things, so what was your point?
I think I wrote before that for me this discussion is not about you, you are a lost case, a human being so far removed from reality, so deeply embedded in your crazy ass religion that it is a waste of time to try to reach you. I am just making sure that your crazyness does not go uncommented and I am spoiling your rants so they can not be used as a reference for THE TRUTH.
The only thing you constantly offer are quotes from your silly old book, you are outdated by 2000 years and more.
Obama is no socialist and no nazi, neither is McCain. Neither of them is a terrorist either.
But you are a dangerous religious fundamentalist, a person who opposes education, thinking, and freedom.
Bug said, "Actually it is quite simple to identify a US politics legasthenic: They constantly accuse someone of being a "liberal" or a "socialist" while not having a remote idea what that really means."
Your position or opinions are what I disagree with. Your statement above reflects your condecending uninformed assumptions.
Your synopsis of the testimony of an older woman who experienced first hand, Hitler's socialist ways and the fall of her country (Germany), as simply, I quote you, "That little video of yours just shows that there are stupid people in the world, so what?", is beyond the pale and void of comprehension.
A whole nation and a world went to war, not over religion, but over a Socialist's maniacal goals. Of course, " they were just stupid! So what" ?????
Your brilliance is blinding,....to common sense.
Obama is absolutely a socialist. He hangs with them. He espouses socialist positions, (by accident) and thinks we all are selfish, because WE want to chose where our charity should go, instead of allowing his administration to distribute the wealth.
I must tell you. Christians everywhere are praying for a breakthrough for McCAin. In the past two-three weeks Biden and Obama have said things out of their mouths that have exposed their real beliefs. Up until their ratings appeared to be insurmountable, they were careful about what they revealed. Christians everywhere believe, the devil always overplays his cards. That is EXACTLY what you are seeing.
"His belief in Spreading the wealth", We are selfish (for not wanting him to spread the wealth, Obama will be challenged in first six months, He has already determined his response to that challenge, what did Faracan, Ayres, and Professor Kaleide see in Obama, that they liked? The truth is coming out.
Here's a curve for you.
I wonder if Teddy Kennedy didn't bring Obama into the forefront as revenge against the Dem's for killing his family? They were in power when the assassinations took place. Ted is dying, what can they do to him now. He certainly was threatened after JFK and Bobby were killed. The Copecney girl may be proof of that.
If Obama loses, blacks will have to look at the fact Obama has been prematurely dubbed. That he was simply a ploy to buy their votes again. It could alienate the black voters from the Dem's. That would destroy the party.
Come on Bug. This is serious stuff. America is America for reasons you evidently do not understand. Christianity says, if you want to eat, you work.
Charity is reserved to the truly needy NOT the truly lazy.
MC, you are trying to educate ME about the history of my own country? You have problems with the history of your country. Like most US Americans of your kind you lack any understanding of what the Third Reich really was and what was going on here. Guess what, I know bunch of people who lived through that first hand and some of them are relatives of mine.
So the comment on a video site is authentic for you?
Comparing Obama to Hitler is just plain stupid and shows what kind of a person you are. You remarks about socialism, charity, and hidden agendas just completes the picture, christian fascist.
The history of your country is history, clear. It is your history, the USA is trying to avoid.
You (Bug) said, " Like most US Americans of your kind you lack any understanding of what the Third Reich really was and what was going on here. "
Well, holy mackeral, enlighten me. BUT, don't skip the part where Germany is devastated by a war they started, WW1, and that after that war, the economy was in the crapper. The Mark was almost worthless and people were in desparate straits. Then along comes an angry wouldbe artist, that worms his way into the arms of unhappy Germans. He tells them what they need to hear, but his motives are twisted. They accept him as a way to get out of their terrible situation. Anything to "change" things.
Many atrosities Hitler commits, like assassinating the Army Generals that supported him, because he was inspiring the people. The killings were kept secret from the people until it no longer mattered. Hitler was appointed by the Kaiser to a lower office, because the Kaiser saw the influence Hitler had and he felt he could control Adolf better. Hitler continued to rise, the details of which are not critical.
After Hitler had developed his Black shirts or brown shirts, groups used to intimidate anyone who spoke against him, there was little anyone could do. HE WAS RIGHT, period. Mass rallies, like Nurenberg, simply promoted the angry little maniac to places he was never supposed to go, as the world later saw. and many died because of it.
Hitler changed everyone's focus by going after the Jews and blaiming them for Gremanies situation. He used religious reasoning to add credibility to his ruse. The Jews were then the scapegoat for Germans, even though their own wrong choices (WW1) brought disaster to their country. WW2 was another result of their looking for answers to their situation in the wrong place, as we have discussed in the "Museum" thread.
Yes, there were desparate times. Yes, the Germans were suffering. Yes, desparate people do desparate things. Of course, they were just stupid???
ONLY hindsight allows you the priviledge of that shallow observation.
Maybe you do not think our situation compares to back then.
1. Our economy (in a realative sense) is in dire straits. Many have lost big bucks, money they live on, from investment accounts.
2. Bank credit is at a standstill, because of rules at the Fed and bad credit extentions.
3. Realestate values have dropped greatly, causing banks to be forced to re-evaluate loans vs colateral, forcing people to come up with cash they do not have.
4. New housing has stopped, new car sales have slowed dramatically, fuel prices drove up the cost of food, besides the cost of an individual getting to work. The dollars required to meet additional food and fuel cost, blew the top off of budgets throught the USA. All of this adds up to lost jobs, lost income which exaserbates the situation.
5. Along comes an articulate black man, who hangs out with angry men. They see something in him that inspires them to promote his attempts to join the political system. He is a socialist in fundamental beliefs but hides it from the public for now.
6. Supporters threaten to sue anyone that says anything wrong about him.
7. He is associated with an organization that attempts to register people to vote for him. Their efforts are found to be fraudulent, across many states.
8. As his confidence rises because of the propaganda of a media that is totally bias toward him, he and his running mate become more bold in what they say.
9. There is a real sense of something being wrong. It demands a question. "Who is this guy and why,..are so many people going nuts over him? He lacks experience, he hangs with known Socialists, even his religious connections are strongly prejudice and anti-American.
10. Observation of his champaign rallies indicates massive followings for a relative unknown. His retoric is exactly what they want to hear. They swoon.
11. As the voting day approaches, he and his VP running mate, growing confident, make statements each that expose what they really want to do and who they really are. Just like in WW2, their oponents grasp these mistakes and launch an agressive effort to save the war.
Obama is not like Hitler yet. That is the point. Hitler did not become Hitler, until after he was enabled by the power of his political position. Then the system served to meet his demands. Sure he shared hiss thoughts in Mine Kamph, but political power was the ingredient that was missing.
Facists operate under dictators. Just incase you have not looked it up lately.
That is what we are fighting against, dictators. We give a lot of power to our President. Once in place, it is too late if we are wrong in our choice.
You might be mistaking Jesus for a dictator. To bad you have totally misunderstood Him. What dictator do you know that died for his constituents, so he could be dictator?????
Dear mimmow, you better watch out. That fish you see on peoples cars is going to swallow you up one day. That sounds bad. It actually is good.
Of course, "shut the fuck up ", that is what you want. That is your only hope.
Hard to mistake the likes of you for anything. Lying, mystifying, demagogic rants.
You hold the ultimate thruth? Anyone not following your way is doomed? The state should not care for its citizens, charity will? So you select who is worthy of being saved?
Fascism does not need a dictator, it is a right wing mindset of being superior, supressing those who are different, following some higher rules. The Roman definition of the term is not what I mean, but you quoting it is in line with your being a bit out of date.
You have no idea at all about the Third Reich, how it started and how evil the people who erected it were. Though you would probably have been good friends with them, the catholic church was.
Your sense of "something being wrong" maybe comes form the very high chance that Obama will put a stop to rampant idiocy in the US government, something mostly GWB introduced and something the likes of your thrive on.
Now think about this: An improved education system that makes children ask questions. Like the questions about your bullshit religion and why they should waste their time praying to some invisible guy in the sky, or believe in things that are obviously in conflict with reality.
"You have no idea at all about the Third Reich, how it started and how evil the people who erected it were. Though you would probably have been good friends with them, the catholic church was."
Kid I am a lot older than you and have several sources of extremely accurate details portraying WHAT HAPPENED, with the Third Reich.
Not everyone is limited to what you may know, although that seems to be a recurring theme with you. You see, my father was a WW2 soldier in the Pacific. He was very interested in the European theater. His interest became mine also.
My abreviated details (about Hitler) in the recent post were just that. You do not have to tell me, although it is good to hear that you and hopefully your fellow countrymen are aware, of the evil involved.
You seem to have missed somewhere along the posts, that I believe the Catholic Church has gone to bed with many along the way. We believe she is the harlot of Revelation. That fact aside, there are many very sincere people that follow the Catholic faith for the most part because their parents or family did. The "C" church says they are the only true church. Blaaaaah, wrong answer.
It serves your predetermined mindset to assign me to their ranks. Typical of your lame offence.
PS Fascism by definition requires a dictator. Where ever you got the superior thing is a guiding part of your prejudiced mindset. You didn't get it from me. I am at your superior mercy.
Your lack of awareness of our systems in the USA is shocking, considering you know so much. Right...
The fact is we have an extensive welfare system ALREADY! Obama is to late for that.
In fact for most of the first two centuries in this country, THE CHURCH was the primary source for any charitablee needs in a community. People received whether they were church attendees or not. Also, people often rejected charity because it was just that. Working to support yourself was a standard.
Only during the depression did Roosevelt create the Social Security system.
There are some historians who credit him with actually extending the depression through this new government agency.
When the church was the charitable source it was handled on a local basis where neighbors knew who was really hurting and who was just slacking.
Eating is a great motivation for a strong work ethic. Hard work was appreciated and respected by all. Not any more by many who have learned that the "system" will support them if they "work it" right.
Years of making a way, where there was no way, has resulted in a black man running for President, THEE top job. This crap about suppressing others is more uninformed baloney. "Equal rights" has now found it's pinacle. That is good and bad news for blacks and others. Good they did it. Bad now there is no excuse for others not achieving by personal effort. Now equal opportunity must mean equal.
You said, " Hard to mistake the likes of you for anything. Lying, mystifying, demagogic rants."
Sorry you have me confused with Hitler. LOL!!!!!
Whatever Truth I may possess, it does not include excluding you. Only YOU can do that.
Anyone not turning to Jesus Christ as their personal savior, will be lost, according to Him, not me. Will I share that with anyone wanting to know what I believe, yes. If you look back through the posts in all of these threads, I did not bring up or make a declaration that you were "going to hell" or you are dammed, until maybe towards the end and now here at your prompting.
Your vagaries are puzzling. Are you talking about "pre-emptive strikes"?
Well, thank your pals in Al Quada for that. Bad news for enemies. Good news for friends. States really are not at risk. Only terrorist supporters.
"something being wrong", was what people who escaped from Germany felt.
You and Richard Dryface, mind over faith. Crap, I wish the shark had got him! LOL, LOL
Christian fascist, you wrote: "Those are the only two choices. One brings life. The other carries death. You are dead to it because you have rejected grace. You have rejected grace BECAUSE, you have never connected to God! Right, how could Jesus be real when God isn't? God isn't real to you because you have rejected Him. THAT disqualifies you OR anyone else from any relationship, let alone one with God. "
and just now: "Anyone not turning to Jesus Christ as their personal savior, will be lost, according to Him, not me."
So not a threat of hell, but none the less a threat. You select which ones are worthy to be saved. Actually it would be a shame for me to qualify to be saved by the likes of you, I don't need to be saved since I am not lost, its your marbles that are lost.
So you talked with somebody who knew somebody, who heard about the Third Reich. Cool, Hitler was put into a low office by the Kaiser (oops, Hindenburg, you should have looked at Wikipedia before writing this) and then he became the evil man that threatened the world. Was that before or after he met Kermit the frog?
And don't "kid" me, you are not significantly older than me and age is not an accomplishment. Education would be, but obviously in your circles that not held in any high regard.
" God isn't real to you because you have rejected Him. THAT disqualifies you OR anyone else from any relationship, let alone one with God. "
One must connect on SOME level to have a relationship with another person. A relationship WITH God, is no different. Not rocket science.
What does the "threat" matter to you. You do not believe in God.
It is only a threat when logic is confronted by Spirit.
Bug, I do not select (or save) anybody. Only he can do that and He says, " I desire that none should perish". Some will. It is their choice, not His.
You can deny my knowledge of TTR, all you want. I could care less. The facts are there. Just like with the Bible others have studied this subject and shared their findings with the world. So, unless you can come up with some secret info, Mine Herr, your point is moot.
PS I corrected the Hindenberg detail. By lower office, it was in comparison to Hindenberg. It has been a while since I watched the documentaries called, WW2, The German front, Century at War, and "Why we fight" by, Frank Capra.
He was evil before anybody knew it. That,...was the point. Had Germans known what he would get them into, what it would cost them,.....
Instead their dire straits dictated their choices. Big mistake, Kermit.
Well, well well,...kid. I couldn't possibly know something you don't know. Listen to yourself. Wait a minute, THAT is the problem.
60 from 44 is, 16 years. 2008 - 44 years is, 1964. You were only born, when Vietnam was in the heart of Johnson, the Democrat, the escalator.
I was answering my draft call, I was number 6, (September 6th) in the draft, when you were three.
Whatever education you have has not delivered you into eternal life. That is a problem I hold in high regard.
Oh, you have seen documentaries. Do you have a fan poster too?
So what minor position was Hitler put into by Hindenburg? Why was Hitler arrested and imprisoned in 1923? What was that book he wrote and when was it published? And where was Jesus?
PS: the quote you mentioned, "Those are the only two choices. One brings life. The other carries death. ...etc." Was late in the Museum thread, as I stipulated in the previous post, seen above.
You said, " Actually it would be a shame for me to qualify to be saved by the likes of you, ..."
You don't have to worry about degrading yourself. My elder brother ( The King) is the only One, who can take care of that. I will vouch for you, IF he asks.
Oh you inmitigated fool MC. You think you're some kind of prince? Is that it?
Prince I doubt. I could call you a naked emperor if you'd prefer.
You state the 'C' church says its the true church and then go 'blaaahh, wrong'.
Why is that the case? A little arrogant and presumptuous of you given that it essentially acts within the same framework of your superstition. You have any idea how ridiculous you sound. It's a bit like a kid being shown video of him pissing in the classroom and then denying he did it; embarrassing forall parties.
You go off on some tangent about Germany based on knowing more than a German does about the subject and then assume that a 14 year age gap gives you some ascendancy in the argument. Wrong. You fail to see that in this instance age has nothing to do with the argument. Free thought on the other hand has everything to do with it
You are incapable of this and it shows.
I guess you'll consider it a punishment if Obama is elected and a happy miracle if McCain is?
You're insufferably boring and stupidly pious.
So, (sighs deeply) I and bug remain to counter your bullshit.
God loves no one as he doesn't exist
The church loves your donations and I am sure in your case they are generous. Keep it up you big religious kool aid gulping flocker.
Ignorance of the vast gap between the "C" church and Protestant Churches.
Ignorance in not knowing the difference between free thought and existant facts, not open to interpretation by "free" thought.
Ignorant of what the word tangent means.
Ignorant of the understanding a seventeen year old might have compared to a three year old. The kind of understanding that guides a life. From experiences that a three year old will likely never have.
Ignorant of God's plan in the Bible which may become more visible, as well as current, upon Obama's election.
ALMOST RIGHT, about " I guess you'll consider it a punishment if Obama is elected and a happy miracle if McCain is?
Not punishment. Just His plan.
God loves you too Minnow. Even though you consider the contest more important than the subject.
He considers the subject more important than the contest. He forfeited the contest to win the subject. You!
We finally agree on something. This site has given me more experience with ignorance than I ever expected.
I know that is not what you meant.
Look. I have never said I knew it all.
You both have consistantly insisted I have, if nothing else by inference.
I can be just as insulting as you can. What a waste of time.
No matter what you have thrown at me, in the end I have been open armed to any interest at all. A sincere question or two would have been OK.
Mako comes out with statements smacking of misunderstanding? It is far more likely he is just pinching tits again. The further he goes, the more it appears it is not a ruse, just ignorance about something he is adamant about. I call it what it is.
We all are ignorant of something. Maybe many things.
The question is, "How important is that thing I am ignorant of?"
I can afford to be ignorant of science because others are pursuing it with their natural gifting and aptitude. I know that their discoveries will come forward to, in some cases, serve mankind well. I aplaude them. It is simply a matter of delegation to me, bottom line thinking.
God is someone I know about.
Am I a Prince no, son, yes. Adopted. Weaknesses yes. Lack of understanding, yes. In need yes.
Do I have a source, yes. Him. Has he made me stronger, yes. Have I gained understanding yes. Has He met my needs, yes when I have let Him.
You want me to have what you have. I want you to have what I have. Either of us would say of "ours", it is good.
Excuses excuses. Your afraid of what you might find.
Are you a brain surgeon?
Hasn't managed to do it yet.
I showed you some good when I began on this post by demonstraiting how some of you were no different than the nucklehead emails that the good doctor used in his vid.
The good was that the extremes, (from either side), are never going to accomplish any meaningful communication. The rosining of sides, so that each is willing to consider attaching itself to what ever it can find acceptable, is only going to be possible if we decide to.
I am saying you have not been there or done that. You just think you have.
You are right there is nothing in religion. Jesus was NOT religious. Your experience has been with religiousness. Try to consider that. It is the difference between what you think and what I am saying. Please.
Sorry man, if Jesus ever lived he is dead now for almost 2000 years, so fat chance I will ever chat with him. Though I would love such a coversation, finding out first hand what really caused that freaky church of christ would be fascinating.
And you may be right, I have not experienced the same things regarding religion as you did. The difference is that I always want to know how things work, so I never was very satisfied with mysteries and ghost stories. If I see a burning bush I either look for something to extinguish it or for supplies to have a barbecue. The chemical and physical mechanics of combustion are not that complicated, it does not take divine intervention to make something burn.
When you really look into religion you find... NOTHING!
Warbler, I have knowledge, more than you it would seem as I don't believe I can afford to be ignorant about science.
However I know (conversely through that very knowledge of my own ignorance) that it is good pursue yet more knowledge. This is a constant quest, something I search for.
I am not ignorant enough to assume I don't need to learn more - you are... you're trapped within your dogma as for you, it's all in your booble with nothing more needed to complete the circle
You wonder maybe why I put up with all the crap you guys throw at me.
It is because I see things in you that will eventually harm you. Things that you do not realize. If you had not spoken these things out of your own mouths, you could condemn me for judging you. As it is, I really am a friend, calling over a wall to you.
The wall was meant to keep you in, to separate you. A wall in essence was put up to separate Adam and Eve, from the garden. Why? Because they ate from the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
My being truely concerned is foreign to you because why I am concerned is foreign. Your mindsets against me, are like a wall with no gate. You can not let me in if you wanted to. You would have to purposely open the wall, yes, at a cost to you.
The irony of that is, the wall is costing you everything as it is. You can not see it because you cannot see over the wall.
Two verses below among many available, discribe a certain problem better than I do.
1 Corinthians 8:1
" We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up." (Apostal Paul, former Pharasse)
Isaiah 47:10-11 " Your wisdom and your knowledge, they have deluded you;
For you have said in your heart,
I am, and there is no one besides me.
But evil will come on you
Which you will not know how to charm away;
And disaster will fall on you
For which you cannot atone
And destruction about which you do not know
Will come on you suddenly.
Guys, I do not want this for you. Neither does the God.
How long will you say, "I am, and there is no one besides me."
PS: All of Isaiah's prophesies have come true.
Consider this; I think you all have possibilities. You think I am impossible.
Why the difference? Because love builds up, in my case. In yours, knowledge puffs up, in the light of your assumptive opinions and demeaning judgements of me, as being void of knowledge, therefore disqualified from any possible value.
It would be bigger if you would become a part of it?
Doomed? Not according to me or my religion.
According to the Son of God, who was willing to lay his life down, so you could live.
If a close friend had done it, you would run to his side. That is why he did it. So you would understand and come to realize, He is your best friend!
Puny? 2000 years old, billions of believers, changed lives, good versus evil, hope vs no hope, humility versus pride, righteousness as a gift one cannot earn.
I made an appeal Bug. You only saw the curse. THAT is supposed to tell you something.
Come on Bug. Use that excellent brain to release your heart. Set yourself free to look at what I have been saying all these months. Without Him, you are so much of what He has designed you to be. There is more. You can be far more!
Mako said, "With 'him' (why not 'her'?) I am no longer able to comprehend the greater wonder that science brings to the party. "
Why is it any less of a wonder?
Why should the discoveries (man's involvement) be the pre-eminent aspect? Isn't that what we are talking about? Man and his limited intellect must be able to explain things. If it wasn't for the unknown, there would be no party!
The most easily frustrated of all creatures is man! If he can not explain it, he is beside himself until he does! Of course you will say, Ah ha! Exactly MC. Man created his gods to eliminate his frustrations!
Well, even man is smart enough to remember when he said, Uhm, there must be a rain god!
Man has not been smart enough to orchestrate the coinciding Words of prophesy and actual events, as recorded in the Word and in history.
While the Hebrews were being led about by God, through Moses, all the nations or peoples around them were chasing false gods. They were eliminated in battle after battle, except when the Jews themselves turned to false gods. Then they fell into captivity and slavery.
When they cried out to God, they were delivered.
There is something you could investigate! One God against all the others.
I am not totally unaware of the incredible world and universe we have. It is beautiful and mind boggling at the same time. That is what exalts our Creator. Our pursuit and discoveries are like Siting with our father as we discover how he did that magic trick, only to realize it was not magic at all!
It can all be brought back to the question, "Well, where did that come from." until we can not explain it! That leaves us at His feet.
Even without Him you guys exhibit a great level of intellectual possibility. You will never reach your max potential, without him. The zone can only be entered in faith. AND, your idea of great, is likely very different than His.
I don't claim to have that answer, but I am telling you that it is possible to find it by further looking into the topic.
You on the other hand already have the bullshit answer: God made it so. It is all written in the bible.
With that attitude the best option is to commit suicide immediately to be closer to your god. There are no answers in life that are not in the bible, no things to achieve since it is all predetermined.
BTW: The first sentence was an answer tailored to a simpleton like you. We actually already know with a quite good certainty how hydrogen came into existence, what we don't know yet is why what we consider ordinary matter has been the prevailing type of matter and why there has not been a mutual annihilation between normal and anti matter. What remains to be established is if we will ever be able to look beyond the big bang, but bad news for you on this front as well: There are first indications that we might. So that pushes the possible realm of your god even further out, so far it is quite surely established not to be on this side of the big bang.
But of course for intellectual drawfs like you it is too much to accept any non absolute answer. The concept of science to question and look for more information, to adapt or even sometimes scrap theories when new evidence comes in is too much. A small cozy world full of fairy tales of burning bushes and magic men in the clouds, the absolute knowledge of always being right, being the only ones who are enlightened, the chosen ones, this is what small minds like you revel in.
Now guess how many religions do use the very same concept? Did you ever care to really look outside the small hole you sit in?
Well, thanks for coming down where we pions can "get it."
It sounds to me like your simple answer, as in Yes or no, was pretty clear, in your more estute version.
"I don't claim to have that answer.."
"I am telling you that it is possible to find it,...(but not yet)
"...the best option is to commit suicide immediately,..." Bug, you are in serious trouble as far as understanding where Christians are at.
IT is not all written in the Bible. Never said that, but somebody taught you a very rediculous point of view.
What ever God did make, still leaves the question to be answered, "How did He do that?" Why does that have to be so different than "How did that happen?" Why can't His doing that, still be inspiring? What's there is there. It is still incredable isn't it?
"There are no answers in life that are not in the bible, no things to achieve since it is all predetermined."
What the heck are you talking about? You never heard me say that and besides, your statement is too general to be intellectually viable. And where did you get that last part. You have never heard the verse that says, "A man chooses his path, and the Lord orders his steps." For the spiritually challenged, the translation is, "Seek to achieve and God will help you."
The predetermined part is the ending. The not predetermined part is, who will you come to believe in. God and His Word, His Son Jesus, OR The world and all of it's attempts to irradicate God, because you can not grasp the fact that man has and will continue to struggle against himself.
"We actually already know with a quite good certainty how hydrogen came into existence,..."
First, it is still a guess. Second, what is the guess you are alluding to? I am curious.
" what we don't know yet is why what we consider ordinary matter has been the prevailing type of matter and why there has not been a mutual annihilation between normal and anti matter."
Maybe it is prevailing because it relates man's existance and needs?
Anti- is not user friendly.
There are first indications that we might? Another maybe?
So that pushes the possible realm of your god even further out, so far it is quite surely established not to be on this side of the big bang.
I agree. If the Big Bang is how He started everything, He had to preceed. Of course that does not eliminate His sticking around to complete His experiment!
If you were not so determined to disprove God's existance, a non-absolute answer would be perfectly fine. For Spiritual "drawfs" (Dwarfs) like you, that seems impossible to set aside, so you can get on with it!
"A small cozy world full of fairy tales of burning bushes and magic men in the clouds, the absolute knowledge of always being right, being the only ones who are enlightened, the chosen ones,... "
You really hate being wrong, but most of your description above is.
This isn't a mind deal Bug. It is a heart deal. That's just the way it is.
Your demeaning comments are comments on you, not me.
You are smarter than me, OK , up to a point.
It's the most important point in your life.
Should you turn the correct way, you'll REALLY be smarter than me. Why? Because you will want to know all that you can. You are young and bright and I am sure I would be impressed.
" The concept of science to question and look for more information, to adapt or even sometimes scrap theories when new evidence comes in is too much."
The concept of Christ, to question and look for more information, to adapt or even sometimes scrap old ways of thinking, when new evidence comes in , is too much." (For you!)
He does not necessarily believe the world is no more than 6000 years old, but he still believes things that are up to 6000 years old and are rooted in humankind being unable to understand things back than as we can today.
End of story? Baby, we definitely could be looking at the end of the story.
I heard the other day, the name Barack, means "lightning". Someone was saying, that when the Lord returns HE will be seen by everyone from East to West, like lightning. Big O's victory may have been from east to west.
I was thinking of a statement Jesus made. " I beheld Satan being cast down to the earth like lightning!" and " The devil comes as an angel of light."
A different point you may find curious.
I have often speculated on the time span between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.
Derek Prince an English scholar expressed years ago that there is a real possibility that the time period between those two verses could be the millions of years you guys are speaking of. I carried it one step further, (again just cogitating) and wondered if God created the earth first, as a place to send Satan.
God cast him out of heaven along with 1/3 of the angels that allied with satan against God. They were restricted to the earth. That's good for God, bad for man, later on.
Satan wanted to be like God and thought he could be. Maybe he was able to create. Maybe the dinosaurs, mostly ugly in appearance, were the result of him. Then, at some point in time, God gets tired of things, has a plan, and allows an ELE meteorite. Satan and his fallen angels, (now demons), survived, being spiritual creatures.
Verse two says "the earth was formless and void and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters."
For centuries the church world has thought when God said "light be" that he created the sun.
What if he just caused the atmosphere to clear so the heavens, including the sun He created millions of years earlier, could shine again on the surface of the earth? Now that life was again possible, He began the Biblical process as noted in Genesis.
IF something like that happened, the age of your fossils and bones etc, would then NOT conflict with the bible. It would allow you to at least consider a Creator God.
Remember, He is not bound by time. Also, man was His plan to have a family but like the angels that betrayed Him, God had to give man a free will, allowing man to choose God or himself sometime in his life.
After letting man propagate and live without any laws, man became so corrupt and bad that God wiped out all but Noah. (I know you do question this Point, just bare with me)
Again we started, then God decided to give us some guidelines threw Moses. The New Testiment says, "Where there is no law, there is no sin." Before Moses and Noah, there was no law. THAT did not work.
After moses, man was still having some trouble. He had complicated the Law, as men often complicate things, (like our tax system), making it impossible to keep the Law. When God saw what a miserable time we were having, it was time for the next part of His plan.
The second to the last part of God's plan was put in place. A virgin gives birth hundreds of years after Isaiah prophesied it, in Bethlehem, as he said it would be, and God protected him from harm until he was old enough to do what he was called here to do.
Once old enough, He shared things and did things that were beyond explanation. He said pray for your enemies, love the unlovable, forgive everybody for anything and above all, learn to keep your mouth SHUT, so you don't curse yourself.
Then, so we would have NO excuse, He died for OUR sins. He had said, He that believeth in Me shall have everlasting life." He was fully God and fully man. Both were requirements for success.
God, escentially died for us, so we would have no excuse on the day we would be held accountable by Him. Recognizing Jesus and His act of self sacrifice, is the only requirement. It should however prompt a dying to self. Old ways of thinking and activities are to be cast aside. He is patient and helpful in the process. We are to pursue maturity in all aspects of life and Godliness. In the meantime others should find us happy and good to know and be around.
The last part is His return. Leaders, and especially one, will rise up and be considered the answer to the worlds problems. 7 years will pass. The first 3.5 will be OK. Peace will be the cry in Jerusalem. At the end of the first 3.5, this leader, the man of Desolation, will enter the new Jewish Temple and sit down calling himself god. (Probably because most of the world by then, maybe including you guys, will have totally rejected God and Jesus.) His act will be considered an Abomination in Israel. Those who understand will flee into the mountains of Moab, Edom and Ammon. The man called, Desolation, means he will kill large numbers of people, making they and their people groups desolate. The Abomination of Desolation will be the act of entering the Temple in Jerusalem, declaring himself God.
For the next 3.5 years, things will go from bad to worse. Any believers left will be killed for their faith, until a certain point. When all looks lost, 100 pound hailstones will help kill one of the largest Armies ever gathered against Israel. All of her neighbors and the rest of the world will attempt to destroy her. That will either include the USA of we will have been attacked in a devastating, paralizing way, unable to help her.
The only thing I have left out is the rapture of the church. What will happen is millions if not billions of people will disappear. (Frankly, I think God has a handle on this "Anti-matter" deal. )
The absense of believers will unleash the same thing that happened between the times of Adam and Noah. No God, no Law, anarchy, militant rule, and destruction of intelligent people, just because they are smart. Why destroy the books when you can kill the writers. MOst books will be on-line.
Those who did not chose God and Jesus as Lord, will either have considered themselves smarter than those nutcase believers, (that are no longer here) or they will be those, maybe less intelligent intellectually, who were not wise enough chose Jesus as Lord, when God attempted to reach their heart.
Hitler showed what happens, the Russians did the same, under Lenin and Stalin. Educated people who disagreed were "disappeared". God was personna non grata and so were believers. They had to go into hiding. The Russian orthadox church, just like the Catholic Church, was in bed with the government. They rationalized this by thinking it would be the only way to preserve God, in their country. The fact is their thinking was man's and not God's. Had they been willing to die for their God, and had another revolution, the world might be a different place today.
Communism grew a whole bunch of unmotivated drunks and motivated Christians. The little bit, the world saw, of their great "People's Country", was a facade. Only a very few , 3 or 4, of their largest cities were modern, even in the most basic understanding.
Since doors have opened, Christians gather openly. When there, church was the only place I saw people smile. Socialism, don't ya love it!
USSA, (United Socialist States of America), the Obamanation, Hope for every body! Well, except the babies! We kill them.
Goes to show that religion ultimately does not have the best interests of its adherents at heart.
One could of course argue that this many deaths IS a good start if it removes fundamentalist christian idiots from the debate.... However that would be cruel because in your befuddled little brain christians have never done evil right?
I bet you WOULD agree it were a good start if we were discussing the martyrdom of fundamentalist believers of Islam though right?
You assume he is imaginary Bug. Anti-matter was imaginary in the past.
Even as a novice, the idea that God functions on an anti-matter level seems interesting.
I apologize for the length of that previous post. The content stands.
Minnow, the fears you speak of do not have to be. I do admit, enduring the events that are coming will require even the strongest believer to prove his commitment, to God and his own conscience.
At least we have a hope that is real. Not just a politically expedient facade.
"Goes to show that religion ultimately does not have the best interests of its adherents at heart. "
Christian's are not killing them.
"in your befuddled little brain christians have never done evil right?" and
"I bet you WOULD agree it were a good start if we were discussing the martyrdom of fundamentalist believers of Islam though right?"
Who's brain is befuddled????? Have I really come across as one who would revel in a boy, blowing himself and others apart? Would you???
I'd have more respect for it if the old guys, especially the IMAM's, leading the way, were willing to die for their beliefs, so their kids could live to carry on, remembering their sacrifice. (As in WW2 and our fathers.)
Unfortunately, the killing of others seems to be their MO. What choice does it leave us, but to defend ourselves.
The one thing I thought you guys would find interesting was the comment below.
"For centuries the church world has thought when God said "light be" that he created the sun. What if he just caused the atmosphere to clear so the heavens, including the sun He created millions of years earlier, could shine again on the surface of the earth? "
and " IF something like that happened, the age of your fossils and bones etc, would then NOT conflict with the bible. It would allow you to at least consider a Creator God. "
Lets say Mickey Mouse actually married Minnie, what would you say?
How close minded are you?
Your religion is bullshit, no matter to what length you go to make up funny explanations for the old writings of people who did in many cases know even less than some who preceded them.
Your content did not stand. It was baseless muck. Nothing you said made sense. Sorry but that's the truth writ large. I spoke of no fears so your rambling was twaddle
You really think you have a pulpit to preach from? I for one am incredulous that you can re-read what you type and STILL press post.
You act all pious and suggest that you would never want to see someone blow themselves apart (no one would) yet you seem incapable of understanding the horror your religion has brought upon people, and indeed still is.
Your fervent belief is in something horrific (as well as stupid) yet you are blinded by what you see as it's implacable good
3. Call it what you will. I grew more ( in wisdom and understanding) after, than previous to my personal experience with God.
4. To most, analogies are a normally acceptable vehicle.
5. That is the POINT! Those who penned the "Old writings" were, as you say, lacking in knowledge in a worldly sense. The writings had to be from a Devine inspiration, especally when comparisons are made to writings from different authors over centuries, displaying the very same inspired instruction.
6. You just can't accept that intelligence (knowledge) isn't everything!
The Bible even says, in support of you, " My people perish, from a lack of knowledge." (God speaking.)
The complication here for you is, He (God) meant (above) to start by gaining knowledge of HIM.
All other knowledge is first peripheral then necessary, important, wonderful, useful, constructive, progressive, inventive and an endless number of other discriptives. AND THEN, wisdom is required, to administer knowledge, whether it be from God or man.
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge;
Fools despise wisdom and instruction." Proverbs 1:7 (Soloman)
MY religion, my God, wants you to be the best you can be, and He wants to help you as a benefit of a relationship with Him, a close, personal relationship. It's basic tenents are far from BS. It's advanced understanding is amazing and very creative.
Good and evil exist. Always. They are simply words that man uses to describe stuff that makes them feel nice versus stuff that doesn't
A mouse returning to its hole finding it's offspring have disappeared (unbeknowst to it, down the throat of a snake) would say, if it were human, that the perps were evil
Our mouse is not human therefore it doesn't and can't use words to describe what has happened....
Good and evil are words and therefore man's creation. Man evolved therefore one assumes that the words man uses have evolved alongside him
Other than thinking you are blinded by religion, here's what I think:
As bug says above, good and evil are both artificial; they're simply man-made words which describe two essentially man-made constructs.
A mouse (as far as we know - maybe science can tell us cause religion sure as fuck won't) does not discuss how evil snakes are. Likewise a snake does not consider itself evil. It does what it does. Mankind on the other hand DOES discuss as well as perpetrate evil, much of it in the name of religion
Measureable? Crazy question.
Who has more blood on their hands; Stalin or Hitler, Bush or Saddam? One of these guys is the least evil and therefore ok right? Wrong, they are all utter cunts.
Is that the level of measurement you want? Black and white enough for you?
Stop trying to be profound. It's Monday for fuck's sake.
"As bug says above, good and evil are both artificial" and " Measureable? Crazy question. "
I understand the words we use are our creation, they sound different in other languages.
Good and Evil are far from artificial.
Setting aside the language used to express them, they are an existance relating to man or beast, that when considered or effected by it, the result can be measured. Whether in dollars or lives, the division of a family or the favor of a sales contract, or in losing a job promotion because someone lied about you, good and evil can be measured. The fact that good and evil is most often interpreted from a personal standpoint, only exemplifies the omni-presence of both, from a personal experience to a national one.
My questions are to be related to human applications, just to keep you guys from being too profound for us morons.
Mankind (versus animal) on the other hand DOES discuss as well as perpetrate good, much of it in the name of religion.
Your statement about Stalin or Hitler, Bush or Saddam, is the answer to
" Can and are good and evil changing polarity?" Your words indicate YES.
from your perspective.
As usual you are full of second hand wisdom from people who are blind.
I had two Jehovas Witnesses at the door this morning, they had a brochure that was labeled "Answers", since I had not time for these morons I just slammed my door, otherwise I might have asked them how someone who does not even know what the question is can have an answer.
Good and evil are human concepts, not natural. Is a star that explodes at the end of its normal sequence obliterating a planet full of life evil? Is a stone that falls down a cliff killing a human evil? Is a predator killing its prey evil?
If the predator does not eat it will die. Is the prey evil because it evades the predator condemning him to death?
Good and evil are meaningless in nature and not objectively measureable. Do you think Hitler thought himself evil? Stalin? Bush?
Why should your questions only be related to human applications?
Oh yeah! I forgot... if you start applying them logically to the greater world around you then any and all arguments you have in favour of your superstition fall apart.
Your cowardice shows in your failure to acknowledge the evil perpetrated in the name of religion; simply saying 'oh it does good too' without even looking dispassionately at the issue shows your true head-in-the-clouds view.
Once again you misinterpret - I said nothing to suggest good and evil are or can change polarity. Two different concepts...man made. (fuck you're slow!)
Can hot and cold change polarity? Night and day? Black and white?
You said, "Good and evil are human concepts, not natural."
So why did you use only non-human " natural" examples. LOL.
You said, " BTW: That changing of polarity makes no sense whatsoever."
OK, I know this is a lame attempt at "being profound" but for Mako's sake, bear with me.
Good and evil are in fact changing polarity.
Was the killing of millions in Germany or in Russia, by Hitler or Stalin evil?
Most would say, yes. ( a negative still negative)
Is the killing of 50,000,000 babies evil? Evidentally not, according to that majority you were alluding to. (A negative is now a positive)
Were the killings in Germany and Russia considered expedient by the perps? Yes. ( A negative seen as a positive, under a socialist government, BTW)
Is the killing of 50,000,000 babies considered expedient by the perps? Yes
( Another negative seen as a positive, under a socialist government, BTW)
Has expediency become an acceptable reason for a given action? It appears so. ( Once a reason, traditionally rejected as un-acceptable, now, in this given example, it has become a totally acceptable reason to kill.)
Good is now considered evil, positions once considered evil are now
seen as good.
Faith once a positive is now foolishness to many,
Biblical social doctrines once an integral part of society, now credited to man as his evolutionary naturally occuring social doctrines.
Biblical foundations set aside for doctrines in humanism.
God was good and revered. Many have decided God is bad or a fantasy.
Even the word good, has been replaced by the word, bad.
" That's killer man!"
Makes as much sense as the other things you say: None.
Good and evil are subjective. My opinion of you and your crazy religion is that you are evil. That is not changing polarity, it is a different definition of where the line is drawn. For me anyone harming society and hindering human development is evil, so consider yourself in that category. Of course your opinion is that your ancient ways are the right ones and everyone should sit on a tree.
Muftie warbler can you just remind me how many people your particular little brainwasher (god to you) commanded your bunch of superstitious idiots to kill in the past...?
Ok...so the polarity changed for your ilk many times.
The rest of us got it far earlier which is why your superstition is fading into the idiocy it deserves
I wasn't really asking if it makes sense. It is a fact. You just refuse to acknowledge it. From a societal standpoint, you are in the tree.
Maybe you and Mako should set aside some of your physical science books and take up some social science.
Bug, you know I am not evil in any sense you wish to consider. You assume over and over, things about me and Christianity that have no basis in fact, when it comes to true Christianity itself.
How it has been represented over the centuries, by men, is another story. I would agree with you in some cases.
Good and evil are subjective? They are if you do not have any guide to dictate your definitions.
If you are your own guide, then you are limited, in applicable understanding, by the experiences you have had.
Christianity removes the subjective in favor of the objective.
You know Christianity recommends kindness to your enemies, love those who hurt you, forgive in order to be forgiven.
It provides the objective guidance that endears all people and their situations, again offering guidance that requires the same from everybody. It suggests courses of action for the more fortunate or those of greater understanding toward the less fortunate or simple. All the time, requiring humility, as an elevating quality, that keeps one confident on the inside and deferential toward others.
Societies that had Christianity, as a dominant factor, prospered until they forsook it. ie Israel, Romans, Germany, Russia, and the US if we do not come to our senses.
When good becomes evil and there is a societal attempt to kill it (good), the dominoes start to fall and that society crumbles. (That is a historical fact, probably best represented by Rome.)
Why?
Because good and evil need to be defined objectively not subjectively.
Mako: "Do it in a way that shows me a difference between YOUR superstition and that of islam (OR ANY OTHER), and stop with the platitudinal shite."
Answer: Jesus Christ and all that He represents.
PS: I do not endorse or support the Catholic Church failures or the abject failures of their system to deal with the appalling errors of their priests.
They will pay.
Meanwhile your hatred of it hurts you more than them. Were you a victim? If so, God Himself will avenge you, if you forgive. Forgive for your sake. So He can forgive you when you need it. Do not blaim Him for their actions.
Aha, that makes sense, as much as bupplubdufftttzzz.
If there actually were a god he would likely have long ago sent a lightning bolt in your direction for being such a boring stubborn ignorant waste of resources.
Mako: "BOTH remove thought and replaces it with subservience"
Only in relationship to character and relationships. NOT in research or art or science. Even then, they can only be recommendations.
Many have found treating their fellow man as they would be treated to be a source of peace and a clear conscience. Character is often sensed and rewarded by mankind in the many ways we can imagine.
The definitions of good and evil I find in the Word are a guide I have found to be course correcting and protective.
Bug: Researchers have found the bitterness of unforgiveness causes a mix of hormons to be released that may promote cancer and other organ disorders.
Mako: "BOTH remove thought and replaces it with subservience"
I said earlier, " Only in relationship to character and relationships. "
Clarifying: The objective definitions of good and evil when it comes to people, presented as behavior and relationship guidelines, remove any question about what is right or wrong, good or evil. Most teachings are found in the NT part of the Bible, by Jesus. Many others are scattered in the OT, mostly in Proverbs.
Subjective definitions of good and evil are as numerous as noses. They are open to extremes that are influenced sharply by personal wants or needs, directed by selfish motives and personal reward definitions.
In animals, you expect subjective contemplations toward their fellow animals, whether predator or not. In humans it can be disasterous. Enter the answer. The objective standards of Christianity, defining good and evil, right and wrong especially for relationships, as promoted by Jesus among others in the Bible.
Bug said, " If there actually were a god he would likely have long ago sent a lightning bolt in your direction for being such a boring stubborn ignorant waste of resources."
Long ago, I would not have blaimed Him.
MC
Bug said, "Sure, no society can function without christianity,..."
I did not say that. I said " Societies that had Christianity, as a dominant factor, prospered until they forsook it."
Oh sure, the USA did prosper especially under the great christian leader GWB.
"Objective standards of christianity" LMFAO! Good that you mentioned old and new testament, very objective, very precise, no contradictions at all in your great book of bullshit.
Do something for your education, read a telephone book, that is more intelligent than the stupid bubble you always come back to.
You are the most ignorant person I have ever encountered.
Multiple years of no terror attacks in USA, just to name a couple of "prosperus" details.
In the last three months, (although we did start to see indications a year ago) we have seen the upheaval in the market/economy.
The Democratic involvement in the details of our economic situation are there. There are indications that this whole mess could be an attack on us by others.
An attack on the country (considered Christian) that has sent more aid and charity, more missionaries and military support to the world,
is right in line with the world's plan to reject God and anyone acknowledging God.
When the Republicans were in charge, we (conservatives) were all amazed that more was not done to turn the country back toward moral standards that lined up with biblical principals.
The forsaking of God, ie. abortion, gay promotion, but most of all, the soft pedaling of churches, to call these moral violations what they are is, IMHO, the most contributory of factor.
The only perspective that may be revealed in all this is God's, His plan as written in the Word.
Our current situation appears to be the opening scenes to the last act of the Bible. It will not be a pleasant deal for Christians, if we have to go through it.
Bug, your inability to separate historical from instructional comment in the bible is clear. It is doubtful you have ever read one.
It is surprising you would recommend something as objective as a phone book! LOL
You said, "You are the most ignorant person I have ever encountered."
Ah yes, another subjective standard set by someone that calls themself, "thebug". LOL.
It's OK Bug. I know you are enjoying your superiority.
"When the Republicans were in charge, we (conservatives) were all amazed that more was not done to turn the country back toward moral standards that lined up with biblical principals."
The government of the Republic is not a religious or moral guide to the people, as that would be a Christian theocracy. If you and your fellow Christians want to be a guide to people in general than perhaps you should put thine own house in order before proselytizing to the sinners.
You never condemn, or even try to purge your own flock of the darkness, but make claims that you bring the light. Why not let hypocrisy be the guide to internal failings, as it is always just if one has the courage and honesty to view the basis of a personal philosophy.
IMHO...
Do not make one step forward on a basis of ignorance to cast a stone of ignorance.
Do not make one step forward on a basis of moral superiority to cast a stone of righteousness.
Do not define who is worthy and who is not of God's notice as that is the judgment of God alone.
Souls should not be gathered like scalps by any Christian, unless you are Jesus.
So you are for the killing of babies? Especially those full term, just 85% out of their "mothers" wombs, where a needle in the head satisfies some technical definition of unborn?
You are for the elevating of the gay lifestyle as an equal to a man & woman marrying? When "the people" overwhelmingly are opposed to it, let alone the bible?
You are for rejecting God from the moral base of our country and you are for the humanistic approach? Man knows best?
You believe that man knows best even though he arrives on the scene as an uneducated infant, totally dependant on input from outside sources, some of which are seen today in the bloody news of the middle east, or the prejudice of areas of our country?
You reject the multitude of references by the founding fathers to God and His Devine influence, over the establishment of this country?
You reject the idea that our "Republic" is "of the people, by the people and for the people? And that the people, and their thinking reflect the character of the country? That a country lacking an objective system of guidance is inherently tilted one way or the other, and so is constantly waving back and forth in it's definitive stands? Unstable in all of it's ways?
You denigh the removal of Christian leaders from promenence that were found in their failure? You reject the knowledge that Christians have been known to "kill their wounded" so to speak, when dealing with internal moral failures, a regretable fact, if I do say so.
Do you hear "the bug" talking when you use the words "never" or "always"? Where in the heck did you come up with such nonsense, " You never condemn, or even try to purge your own flock of the darkness,"
Does any Army in a firefight stop trying to accomplish it's mission just because some portion of the offensive fails? Isn't that a lesson in itself, for the rest of the force. Of course the enemy rejoices and then makes the mistake of thinking the whole force is represented by the failure they saw!
Self examination goes both ways. You are doing a little judging yourself.
It says in Matthew 7: 9 " Or what man is there among you who, when his son asked for a loaf, will give him a stone?"
What He is saying here is, when you ask God about the beam in your own eye, (asking seeking knocking) He is going to tell you the truth of the situation. You are asking for bread, the truth may feel "like a stone"! But, it goes on to say, and I paraphrase, Your Father in heaven knows what you need and inspite of the pain, the truth is a good thing..
Whatever you have felt, to post as you have, seems to have prompted things from you I would not have expected. I digress.
According to your IMHO:
I am ignorant, and a stone caster? (Who is casting the stone now?)
I am exalting myself as morally superior? ( God ,..is morally superior! That is my OBJECTIVE point!) ("There is none righteous, no not one." Check out Romans 3:9-10.)
"who is not of God's notice "? Oh, to the contrary, I am sure He notices everyone, especially on this site. I make no excuse for what He says, concerning the ultimate rejection of Him or His Son, and the cost to anyone guilty of same.
They come by Grace or by the Law, neither is at the discretion of the evangelist. The individual heart determines which will work. In the end, he who is bloodied by the Law, cherishes the Grace, once received. It was his doing. That is the truth he realizes. It was HIS doing, to set it aside. That is the Truth, he cherishes.
I do not have the calling of an evangelist. I am a teacher.
Your truisms were insulting to me personally. The tonality of my responses be evidence. " Let he, who is without guilt, cast the first stone?" Now that would cover all of us pretty well.
You once said, "We are all just trying to do the best that we can." I appreciated that from you. That is no doubt true.
Is it wrong however, to offer a means to do better, better in a way that is personally rewarding, and not just some cookie cutter pattern that all must submit to?
Your question is a angry non-sequitur, and a form of vile arrogance. You know why this is true don't you?
"You are for the elevating of the gay lifestyle as an equal to a man & woman marrying? "
This too is a angry non-sequitur. I am for freedom of religion, as stated in the bill of rights, and all that implies by act and intent.
"When "the people" overwhelmingly are opposed to it, let alone the bible?"
Just because 'your people' are overwhelmingly are opposed to it, does not mean that it should infringe on the liberty of any citizen to live as they choose, and pursue life, liberty, and happiness.
"You are for rejecting God from the moral base of our country and you are for the humanistic approach? "
Yes, if that one religion will force it's "moral base" on any citizen.
"Man knows best?"
Man must learn from history, and bring that wisdom forward. If the divine spark be present, there is no need to debate good and evil. Man does know a great deal about history, and some of us are unwilling to repeat the horrors that forced religion can bring. You cannot deny that the history of many religions, Christianity being one of the worst in this regard. Yet in every age we are told it won't happen this time, we are here to force a morality unto you that will please God... and yet every time the righteous destroy everything.
"You reject the multitude of references by the founding fathers to God and His Devine influence, over the establishment of this country? "
This statement is false. History is not re-written because you want it to be so. Jefferson and the others believed strongly in the separation of church from state.
"You reject the idea that our "Republic" is "of the people, by the people and for the people? "
This question is another angry non-sequitur, and is a simplistic ploy, as I am the one trying to convince YOU, that this is true.
"And that the people, and their thinking reflect the character of the country? That a country lacking an objective system of guidance is inherently tilted one way or the other, and so is constantly waving back and forth in it's definitive stands? Unstable in all of it's ways?"
It called American Democracy. If you don't like how it works then perhaps the problem is not with the Republic, but what you want in its place.
"You denigh the removal of Christian leaders from promenence that were found in their failure? You reject the knowledge that Christians have been known to "kill their wounded" so to speak, when dealing with internal moral failures, a regretable fact, if I do say so."
I simply state that when one preaches, or teaches from a divine footing they should be divine. There is no religion that is so pure that it can speak about "internal moral failures", as history has proven. If you really believe in the message of Jesus, then you will leave the judgment of morality to Him.
"Is it wrong however, to offer a means to do better, better in a way that is personally rewarding..."
Rewarding to who? Who is the judge of what is a better way? Every tyrant and dictator throughout history has said this same thing.
MC, you are a defective and anti social being. You want to dictate how people have to live and what they can think.
People like you are the cause of conflicts and backsteps for humanity. You want to replace reason and thinking with a book and you want to replace law and democracy by the arbitrary rules of your religion. There is no difference between you and a radical mullah, only the name of the book is different.
You are one of those people who are the inherent problem of democracy: A real democracy has to allow its people to be as stupid as they want and even has to allow them to attack the basic principles of the society and democracy itself.
The things that help against religious relicts like you is education and ecouraging of thinking and questioning. So unless the education system fails utterly there is no chance for your filth to spread too far.
" The government of the Republic is not a religious or moral guide "
Ever heard of Roe vs Wade? ( non-sequitur, ...right)
"elevating of the gay lifestyle" " I am for freedom of religion,"
What religion is that? Also, the gays are more than willing to impose their way upon me!
You have avoided acknowledging your position on these things.
You have called me angry. Yes, it is true, I am VERY opposed to the killing of unborn children, and I feel that my opposition to the gay's agenda being forced upon me and the majority of Americans can only be resisted by speaking out, as I have here. They can knock down an old woman carrying a cross?
"does not mean that it should infringe on the liberty of any citizen to live as they choose, and pursue life, liberty, and happiness."
Fine let them go back in their little closets. They (again) have no reservation about infringing on my beliefs. They're private life is to be just that, no problem.
"I simply state that when one preaches, or teaches from a divine footing they should be divine. "
What? Are you kidding? That is not possible! What religion was it you endorse?
The Word is devine,... not man. Not any man, except Jesus.
There is no religion that is so pure that it can speak about "internal moral failures", as history has proven. What the heck are you talking about? The Bible speaks very clearly about it. THAT is the purity, not man. What history are you talking about????
"Rewarding to who? Who is the judge of what is a better way? "
To the individual that experiences it, after willingly receiving it. If rejected, it does nothing. They are the judge.
From your responses, I would guess that your anger when confronted with rationality is generated by some kind of mental illness, or brain injury.
When you cannot respond directly to the issue, but quote the bible, or simply ignore or twist the responses of others here to fit your world view, you are engaging in avoidance, and deflection, and obtuse specious reasoning that is more suited to a child than a adult.
Any normal adult would have had a reasoned and rational response to what I posted above. Yet that was not to be. I will hope you find your way out of the religious miasma with which you define your life, and perhaps find happiness for yourself, even if you don't generate in others.
Try not to hurt anybody with all that anger along the way.
"No system without enforced rules is stable for any significant time since there will always be somebody taking advantage over others. I never fully understood how Marx ever got the idea that his communism is actually workable, the same problems apply to it as do to anarchy."
How is it we are on opposing sides? I agree with this totally. My point is, along with common sense laws, the doctrines of Jesus can be supportive in social interaction. They are fair to all involved, even to the point they say, Do not to laugh at your enemy's dilema, or (God) will relieve him of it.
You are awash in middle of the road positioning. You call resistance to your opinion anger. Of course anybody differing is "mental". That, is left of center.
Nothing has been twisted. You are in denial of your true condition.
If there is anything childish, it is your being caught with your hand in the cookie jar, so to speak, and then blaiming me for catching you.
I have not heard you answer any of my questions? Is that what you mean by avoidance and deflection?
Call me what you will, I have heard it all on these sites.
I have tried to be, and I am at heart, a reasonable person. The situation we are in, in this country, is because we (conservative-believers) have not spoken up. I chose to at this point, since this is a totally secular liberal site, to do so.
My quoting the Bible really "bugs" you guys. Ever wonder why?
I think it is believed to be so objective, that no matter what you say you believe about it, IT still effects you, ....and you guys do not like it.
If it is the truth (and it is), you guys lose,.......until you come into agreement with it!
Cain and Able had the same problem. The likeness is there. You have the spirit of Cain. He had to redefine his (unacceptable) position by getting rid of his brother.
The problem for Cain was, God had defined good verses unacceptable, not his brother Able.
God even appealed to Cain and said, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? " If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and it's desire is for you, but you must master it!
"You are awash in middle of the road positioning. You call resistance to your opinion anger. Of course anybody differing is "mental". That, is left of center."
Wrong, as you have no clue about any positions I hold, as per your own words: "You have avoided acknowledging your position on these things. " So you have made me into what you want me to be, as you have done to the others. Nice neat little understandable labels applied and categorized in the black and white file correct?
"Nothing has been twisted."
It is always twisted, into some conservative Christian rantings about things that have nothing to do with the question asked. This is denial.
"You are in denial of your true condition."
This is deflection.
"If there is anything childish, it is your being caught with your hand in the cookie jar, so to speak, and then blaming me for catching you."
You have never "caught" me on anything. That is deflection.
"I have not heard you answer any of my questions? Is that what you mean by avoidance and deflection?"
This is a lie.
"Call me what you will, I have heard it all on these sites."
Why do you think this is so?
I have tried to be, and I am at heart, a reasonable person. The situation we are in, in this country, is because we (conservative-believers) have not spoken up. I chose to at this point, since this is a totally secular liberal site, to do so.
I asked you before in this thread if you were seeking a theocracy for the US, and you stated that you were not. Then you write: "When the Republicans were in charge, we (conservatives) were all amazed that more was not done to turn the country back toward moral standards that lined up with biblical principals."
You are the one caught in a lie, and when confronted with it, proclaimed that: "So you are for the killing of babies? "
"My quoting the Bible really "bugs" you guys. Ever wonder why?"
Because your cutting and pasting from the bible is your crutch to avoid the task of really thinking about the question asked, and provide a real opinion. It is called deflection, because you have no opinion of your own.
"I think it is believed to be so objective, that no matter what you say you believe about it, IT still effects you, ....and you guys do not like it. If it is the truth (and it is), you guys lose,.......until you come into agreement with it!"
I believe that it effects you also, that you believe that it may be so, that none will be, such as it would be. When you say that IT will not be so, then it will be so.
IT is called obfuscation, and I think Bug will continue to call it nonsense.
""Cain and Able had the same problem. The likeness is there. You have the spirit of Cain. He had to redefine his (unacceptable) position by getting rid of his brother. The problem for Cain was, God had defined good verses unacceptable, not his brother Able.
God even appealed to Cain and said, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? " If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and it's desire is for you, but you must master it!"
Yet another feeble attempt to slay a poster with the biblical cudgel.
You proclaim to be a teacher of the Word. There was a Evangelical preacher who once posted on this site, who was far, far more enlightened as to the Word than you. We had some debates and his arguments were well reasoned, and yet still rooted in the Word and INTENT of God. You IMHO have not yet expressed a point that was rooted in intent, but just the Word as written, and it is poor substitute for true understanding of the bible that you hold so dear.
MC, what annoys me about your use of the bible is as pod says that you use it instead of thinking, like too many people do with their religious books. You totally lack any external references, which makes it impossible to have a useful discussion with you. But you can rest assured that I will continue to contradict you.
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