Is that how people think it works in Canada? True, we have some doctor, nurse, and bed shortages, so sometimes you might need to wait, but it's not first come first serve! If you're a bum off the street with a stab wound you get treated before the rich lady with a twisted ankle. Most of us are stoked about out medical system and certainly don't mind paying taxes for it. You never know what kind of lousy hand life might deal you, so it's nice to know that even if you lose everythin, you can at least get the care you need if you get hurt. Tommy Douglas was the man!
I'll tell you how it works in Canada; you Canadians don't even know just how bad you have it. I used to be a telecom engineer in certain rural areas of the southwest US. The city of Perryton, Texas has a population of about 7500 people. Ochiltree General Hospital in Perryton offers an MRI suite to their patients. When you talk about small-town life, Perryton, Texas is the embodiment of it. Yet they have an MRI. It is a 3 hour drive from Amarillo, Texas and a 4 hour drive from Oklahoma City. Oklahoma City is roughly the same size as the London, Ontario metropolitan area. Do this experiment: drive four hours away from London, Ontario to a town of about 7500 people and see how many MRI suites you have there. Tiny little Perryton, Texas of 7500 people has an MRI suite that is open to the public ON DEMAND. In Canada, on the other hand, the Wait Times Alliance hopes to REDUCE wait time for an MRI to 30 days. So a private hospital in the smallest jerkwater berg in Texas can somehow provide MRI on demand, but the entire Canadian government can't seem to get wait times down to less than a month.
Christallmaybe, this had EVERYTHING to do with the government. She died because it was a governmentally-run hospital. Nobody cares and nobody ever will, because there is no accountability. No one who works for the government is concerned about losing their job, and they never will be.
Anyone here in the US who wants governmental involvement in healthcare should get ready for the speed, customer service and incompetence that we've become accustomed to from the DMV.
I see where your coming from, but think about it. If a medical professional does not help a dying woman just because they know they are not going to be held accountable is not a government problem, that's a people problem. Also, having lot's of MRI's is great, if you can afford to use one, your pretty much out of luck if you can't afford it.
don't you find it interesting that this is happening in the southern part of a state that is so overrun with illegals getting coughs and colds treated in emergency rooms for free that they lack personel to treat the truly critical?????
I'm just waiting for Canuck1963 to spout some of his bs about this clip. I guarantee he won't be able to help himself - the king of armchair justice, but the kitten of real life.
You've probably never even been to Canada. Lived here all my 43 years and have VERY few complaints about our FREE health care. And by the way, it's Canada not Canaduh. Shouldn't expect anymore from a country that elected George W. Dumbass TWICE!!!
No complaints in Canada about socialized medicine because the poor don't know better and the rich come to America. The hospital that killed this poor woman was a COUNTY hospital. Yes, that's right -- funded by the government. This is the kind of treatment you get when the government gets involved in medicine. And to think that there are people out there who want to hand over the hospitals to the government. Thank God we don't have socialized medicine.
Let this be a reminder of response-ability. While this is a sad way to remind us that we have more personal power over our health and prevention of disease than we practice, it is a reminder nevertheless.
That's insane. It happens all the time. If you don't have insurance you're fucked. And even if you do have insurance that doesn't mean you're not gonna get fucked. What does America stand for? "Let's get fucked."
surferbum22, perhaps you should move to another country if America is out to "fuck" you. Of course you may not be American at all, in which case I am glad for America.
Funny how a minority of ignorant, hayseed Amercians get all bent out of shape when anyone dares criticize ANYTHING about Uncle Sams system. But for what it's worth, and if any of them WANT a word of the world from outside their borders, here it is (yes, Mr. Throbstick...I'm still here):
1. According to the World Health Organization, the U.S. is ranked almost DEAD LAST providing health care for its citizens; leave moronic politics and fucking blind nationalism out of this; we're talking about peoples' lives here. Georgie-Boy can spend 80 BILLION DOLLARS A MONTH on a fuckin' useless war, and a woman has to die on the fucking floor of a HOSPITAL room?? And there are STILL fuckheads out there who accept this, by simply saying "Oh gee, it's a COUNTY hospital, run by the government. To bad-so sad". Unreal. Totally fucking unreal.
2. The U.S. does NOT have the best health care system in the world (far from it); rather, it has the MOST EXPENSIVE model. There's a difference. Are there talented and competent American doctors and nurses? Of course there are. But they're part of a PROFIT-DRIVEN enterprise. The majority of countries in the world who provide health care based of human need, rather than profit (Britain, France, Canada, Croatia, Cuba, and on and on) are doing quite well.
3. I've never been to the hospital much in my life, but the few times I've needed medical attention.....I got. Simple as that. Sure, there's a wait sometimes that pisses me off, but so what? If something was life-threatening, I get in quick. No problem. If not, I might wait. Big deal. And guess what? I won't see a fucking bill in EITHER scenario. And know what the added bonus is? I won't have to ever take out a second mortgage to cover it.
4. Check this out: Right from BIRTH, Americans are taught and lead to believe the following philosophy: "You get sick....You go to doctor....You pay doctor." It's that simple. And when they hear stories about other countries where that is NOT the case....they flip out, and actually DEFEND this fucked up notion. Because it's what they've been raised with....and all they know. What part of the "human health care should be for human health, and not profit" argument don't they fucking understand?? Cultural brainwashing at its best, I suppose.
My wife is from the U.S. Midwest. After she emmigrated up here several years ago, she about had a fuckin' FIT, after seeing first-hand the difference of medical care delivery up here, versus what she'd been raised with all her life: NO getting a bill for each and every doctors visit; no bill for each and every fucking tablet you get prescribed; no fucking HMO to sit there and approve a procedure for you, based on if THEY think its okay or not; no fucking CO-PAY which STILL does not cover ALL medical expenses.
Thank you Canuck for saying what needs to be said about the current medical system.
This is the richest country on earth. There is NO REASON whatsoever all persons cannot be covered by insurance cradle to grave. For much less than the money we spend on Iraq we can cover all Americans, but the ones freaking out the most are those who are constipated with the idea of "socialized medicine." Just like Bob Dole who opposes medical care for everyone and even opposed Medicare right from the start, yet STILL gets top-level taxpayer funded medical insurance. Hypocrite.
Universal healthcare NOW. NO ONE who opposes this should ever get into any elected office. I don't care if that person is running for local dogcatcher.
See comment earlier cafuck. I precited that your ignorant ass, big nose couldn't stay out of this. Get a life, get a job and stop burdening the canadian system.
I think skysoalive, nefariousprior, boobhead, joefriday, roballmighty
are all very good representations of the 98% of americans who have never left the country, don't speak any languages besides english, and get all their news and information from typical american media sources. I wouldn't get so worked up about what they say... it's like arguing with children. They insist they are right and know everything, but it's only their limited worldview that makes them so ignorant and afraid.
Next time maybe you can provide web links to your points so they can click on them and read all about it.
Sorry to burst your bubble wolf, but I have been to several other countries, and have friends from different countries, including canaduh, I have never heard them complain about the USA as much as canuck, I'm thinking that all his hatred is probably about the fact that Americans have bigger dicks than canaduhians.
Funny, I have lived in Europe for the last four years and speak almost fluent Deutsch by virtue of immersing myself in the local culture. I am entirely impressed with the state of our UNion right now, but I also must acknowledge that there are for more things that I love about America than I hate about it. What's more is that if I found MYSELF complaining about America like so many of the USA haters here I would actually do something about it, like leave. We are not tethered to our geographic locations and have the option to expand our horizons as well as improve our situations. But as a typical, liberal who sucks off the teet of America but trys to bite it at the same time, I guess you would not understand doing much more than talking out your ass, repeating what you have heard and demonstrating that you are entirely incapable of saying anything original. Sad man, sad. If you don't like America and there are other places that you find more attractive, then by all means, go, go and be happy. But please grow a brain and stop with the tired generalizations. You sound like every other ass who jumped on the band wagon.
Look, while vacationing in the West Indies some years back, I met an Amercian couple there, who were very pleasant. Eventually, the conversation turned to politics. And ya know what? They were very rational about things. They were proud of their heritage, and yet at the same time, they were deeply concerned about the road their Republic was heading down.
Nice folks, they were. SANE, even. A few things we didn't see eye-to-eye on, but nice folks, nonetheless.
You probably didn't run your f'ing mouth to them like you do on here, it's the things you say and the way you say them that set's people off. It's o.k to have an opinion, but you don't have to be an asshole. Try posting your opinons without condemming the people that don't agree with you.
Oh and as far web links go, what's the point? I could throw a million web links at these yokels, and they'll still "No, fuck you; I'm right, and you're wrong".
if the woman had been smart she would have left the hospital, called an ambulance, and returned and been automatically admitted without WAITING IN PAIN in the reception room.
I've been in a situation before where hospital staff were unwilling to help (withdrawels from GHB) and so when one hospital refused to help me I DIDN'T STAY THE FUCK AROUND, I left and went to another hospital. took me 2 times untill I found one that would take me (3rd times a charm).
in my opinion (having had numerous death threatening illnesses and situations in my life) she killed herself when she decided to stay at the hospital she was at and continue to 'try' to get help.
Ummm.....errr....so, like...it's this womans fault for having the nerve to go to a hospital to get medical care, after throwing up blood on their floor? And like, she killed herself by waiting there, expecting medical care? At a hospital? It's a suicide? At a hospital? On their floor? She shoulda left the hospital, called an ambulance.....to take her back to the hospital? Or another hospital? And it's....what?....HER fault? Because she was....suicidal?
Okay...ahhh...I'm processing here.....ahhhh...ok...I'm sorry...I can't help myself....oh shit...I've got to say it.....oh no...here it comes:
HOW IN RED-WHITE-AND-BLUE FUCK DID YOU PEOPLE EVER MANAGE TO PUT THREE GUYS ON THE MOON???? HUH??? HOWWWW????
THANKS A LOT!! I ALWAYS DISMISSED PEOPLE WHO SAID THE MOON LANDING WAS A HOAX, AS CRACKPOTS!! NOT ANYMORE!! NO FUCKIN' WAY!! THERE'S NO WAY ANY OF YOU HAD THE WHEREWITHALL TO PULL THAT OFF, MUCH LESS BRING THOSE FUCKERS BACK!!! NOOOOOO WAYYYYYYY JOSE.
There. I got it outta my system.
Anonymous? Stick to your name. It's better that way.
Ever heard the phrase "Figures lie, and liars figure."? It's easy to skew numbres to look like anything you want, I'm not saying it might not be true, very well could be, but it takes more than a few posting from the same web site to convince me.
To paraphrase our dear Amercian cousins (and contrary to what I may sound like, I DO like the average Yank...just not his/her government, or health priorities):
Listen, seriously, though, here's what I don't get: We're not talking about McDonalds here, right? We're talking about a woman vomitting BLOOD on the floor of a HOSPITAL, and the staff obviously not treating her. Granted, I'm no fuckin' doctor, and I DO know thay have to prioritze patients in their care; but shit, if this wasn't a "priority", I'd sure in fuck be hard-pressed to figure out what exactly what their idea of "priority" is.
Whether or not McDonals gives me that Big Mac in a timely fashion AIN'T gonna dictate whether I live or die....y'know?
Funny thing is, though, I bet ya you'll never see any member of congress dying on a hospital room floor....will you?
Unlike the "intellectual" Americans on this thread (you know the type; when you come at them with the smallest of criticisms, or anything that taxes their minds, their responses are always the same: "MY dick is bigger than YOUR dick!!"; "You're a FAG!!"; "You SUCK!!"); now listen carefully, Robbie-BOY, and quote me if you like: The MAJORITY of Americans are like little kids in a playground. Children. They don't know how to read a map or an atlas; have no clue as to anything beyond their borders, and get very hostile when a contradictory point of view is at odds with something they've been brainwashed into believing for the last 200 years. Want more examples? Okay, fine: The rest of the world goes metric; you folks stay at imperial measure. The rest of the Western democracies go with a parliamentary democracy; you folks go with a nutty congressional model. The rest of the Western democracies go with universal health care; you folks go with a PAY-FOR-IT-OR-DIE scheme. The rest of the Western democracies decide things work best when you separate church and state; you folks decide to mesh the two. Everytime the world ZIGS...your country has to ZAG!
So don't come crying to me if you can't take it, ok? Why don't y'all act like fucking grown-ups for a change, for fuck sakes, and say "Hmm. IF he's right about even a quarter of this shit, then MAYBE WE SHOULD LOOK INTO FIXING IT."
But that ain't gonna happen, is it?
Because if it did, there's no way a fucktard like George W. woulda got elected.
Is using the word fuck in every sentence your idea of grown up? And again you are letting your ignorance show, since when did we combine church and state?
P.S. it takes a real big man to make threats on the internet, besides whatever you say to me bounces off me and sticks to you, cause i'm rubber and your goo!
Unfortunately, Canuck, you do run your mouth. Go back and read your posts. They're mostly filled with ad-hominem attacks and profanity. You do not have the mental capacity to handle a conversation in a moderated tone. But I do. So to respond to a few more of your points:
1. The world went metric because the rest of the world FOLLOWED the US into the industrial revolution. We were the leaders. After we paved the path and showed how things should be done, the children of the world were able to come in afterwards and around 1875 finally decide that they would have an agreed-upon system. Of course, this was far too late for the US, we were already in the full swing of industrializing humanity. After that, any vestiges of older sytems in Europe were done away with after the US saved the Europeans in WWII and they had the opportunity to rebuild from the ground up. The metric system is a better system, but it would cost more to change than the economic benefits that would be realized by that change. Another economics lesson lost on a leftist, I'm sure. But we led the way and you reaped the benefits. You're welcome.
2. The debate of parliamentary model vs. congressional model of governmental system is a pretty arbitrary debate. They're both representative democracies, and you're grasping at straws there. What you should notice is how the US is spreading representative democracies to parts of the world that never had it before. THAT'S the big picture. Again -- you're welcome.
3. The rest of western democracies go with universal health care and they all trail the US in quality and quantity of health care. Nobody does medical research in your backwards socialist countries. All of you silly leftists reap the benefits of American ingenuity and inspiration. Check it out: http://www.debate-central.org/topics/2002/book2.pdf Again -- you're welcome.
4. The US was first to separate church and state. It's what we were founded on. People came to this country to escape religious persecution by the government, and unfortunately, it's a freedom that Canadaians are no longer able to enjoy. In case you didn't know it, Canada has made it illegal to read certain passages of the Bible. Your arguments prove precisely what we get from government.
Fortunately for everyone, however, you are most assuredly not "right about even a quarter of this shit". In fact, you are so perfectly clueless that I don't know how you figured out that you actually live in Canada. I would not be surprised if you are actually pounding out your retarded diatribes on a mule-powered computer somewhere in Mexico. Oh yeah -- they have government-run health care in Mexico, too. Ummm... why were you bragging about Cuba's health care system, but not Mexico's? Oh yeah -- because you're one of the "useful idiots." Nobody can refute what's going on in Cuba, while everyone knows exactly what's happening in Mexico. So pathetic.
Well lets see if canuck can respond intelegently to this, or my guess is he will come back with a tirate of what an idiot you are, and belittle you. It is kinda funny to read the link you posted and see that govt funded medical care aint what its cracked up to be.
Canuck, you are so boringly predicatable. I crystal balled your ignorant presence here at some point (see comment earlier in the thread). Stop burdening the canadian system and get a job emptying port-a-johns.
Looks like the fat bitch did in fact visit McDonalds several times that same day and was definitely not refused service. Wouldn't she have had to make an appointment 13 months out at a hospital in Canada...
I had to sign up for this site just to get in on this one... (dammit, was only here for the waiter with the fake dick in his pants!)
Any American that thinks the health care system here isn't broken is insane. It isn't the fault of a "government run hospital". I was in that system for 12 years when my husband was in the Navy. Military medicine. That means when you go to have a baby, you pay 14 dollars to cover the cost of your food. You may never see the same doctor twice but they are all highly skilled. Also, when you go to a "clinic" for an appointment you are seen on time...not an hour later. The only thing the government IS responsible for is NOT taking over. No, that has been done by greedy insurance companies. THEY control U.S. healthcare.
Count yourself lucky if insurance is a benefit at work. Otherwise you are looking at at least $500/ mo. for coverage, and don't even ask about trying to insure an entire family. Pre-existing illness...you are just screwed.
Emergency rooms here are overrun because they are not allowed to turn people away without insurance. So people with runny noses, constipation, and hemmorhoids wait until after hours to go to ERs for treatment of minor illnesses. True emergencies like this unfortunate patient with the perforated bowel are left to writhe in pain on the floor waiting for their turn to be seen.
I don't care if this lady was an immigrant or over-weight or what ever. Insurance or not, who gives a shit. Just imagine having an uncomfortable feeling in your gut for an hour or so and you fight it but you finally ask someone to take you to the hospital. You are so ill you are in the floor. People are stepping over you and mopping around your face because you are making a mess. And THIS is America???
I am a registered nurse. Don't fuck with me. I know what I am talking about.
Well, Canuck, I would be far less concerned by your posts if not for the fact that your statements reflect the apex of leftist intellect. There is nobody on the left who is smarter than you are. And I mean that sincerely. It is impossible to hold a conversation with a leftist who doesn't dismiss foreign ideas outright. Anything incongruous with your point of view is tossed aside with a simple "Go get another helping of Fox News." I gave you a well-reasoned, well-articulated, very short argument about the follies of socialism in medicine. The best that you could do is dance around the issue, bring up Fox News and talk about a bunch of fluff that had nothing to do with the argument. However, since you meander through an argument like a drunk cowboy following a blind calf, I will address every single one of your semi-coherent points.
1. The WHO is a leftist organization. As long as the US still is the richest country with the most powerful military in the world, every leftist organization will rank the US dead last on something. I am glad to know that the WHO ranks us dead last on *providing* health care for our citizens. The least amount of governmental interference is why we have the best level of health care in the world. I will also take this opportunity to point out that in one sentence you beg your opponents to leave politics out of the health care debate, and in the VERY NEXT sentence, you start talking about the Iraq war. Again, this is the level of discourse on the left. You muddle through an argument, taking the shotgun approach, i.e., you scream bloody murder about a bunch of things that you don't like and hope that nobody notices the fact that you lack the brains to make a point on the actual subject. But then you jump back on the subject and ignore the biggest point in the entire conversation. The point is that there is a certain degree of socialism in the US healthcare system. We cover 40 million people with Medicaid. That's more than the entire population of Canada. These people -- poor and indigent -- pay virtually nothing for their healthcare, but it's even bigger than that. Not only do we offer Medicaid, a FEDERAL program, we also have COUNTY-funded hospitals in virtually every single county across this nation. But this point was lost on you. The fact is, this was a county-funded hospital. It is a perfect model of socialized medicine. This is what you get with governmental intrusion into medicine. It's a simple point. Do you think that things would be better if every hospital in the US were suddenly turned into government-run institutions? Are you nuts? (Don't answer that one.) This is a simple point and that's why I don't expect you to understand it. You are a leftist. Being a leftist means never having to say "I understand." But there's more, because there actually is a chain of hospitals that is run by the federal government here in the US. Did you know that? Are you aware of that? If you don't know what that chain of hospitals is, then I'll give you a hint: It's the place of last resort for the patients. Still don't know? Another hint: It's the healthcare provider that is worse than any other healthcare provider in the nation. Give up? It's the VA hospitals. Yep -- that's right -- millions of veterans in this country are given government-run medical care and it's about as bad as sleeping in a sewer. Although probably less sanitary. I don't need to hear a single word from you offspring of inbred French pelt traders about nationalizing America's healthcare system until the government can clean up the VA hospitals it already has. In case you didn't know it, government ruins everything.
2. A profit-driven system works under only one single circumstance. This is a big lesson for a leftist, so I will beg you to pay attention. This does not hold true solely for the medical system; it is true in every single segment of business and society. Are you ready? Here it is: profits can only be made when a customer is being served. You piss and moan about profits, but are too blind to notice that profits can ONLY be made when customers are being served. People don't spend their money on products and services if the vendor isn't providing goods or services. This fact goes to the heart of your hatred for the US. You are filled with hate for anyone who makes money, yet you don't have the mental wherewithall to understand that money is only made when people are being served. However, as to your claim that Britain, France, Canada, Croatia, Cuba (Cuba!?) and other socialist countries are doing "quite well" is concerned, you're crazy and brainwashed. Look at what Age Concern, a UK charity, has to say about age discrimination by public doctors: http://www.ageconcern.org.uk/AgeConcern/0E4DC476ED22451BB66ABDF52C0B2B54.asp And guess what -- it happens in every country where the government has to ration health care. And I will reinforce the fact that you're crazy for bringing up Cuba. It shows you to be as crazy as a rat in a coffee can when you bring up this sort of deranged ranting. Michael Moore will spew the Cuban state-sponsored propaganda, but you won't see any interviews with Cuban refugees here in the US to let us know just how off-base Mr. Moore really is.
3. Wow. Things worked out just fine for you. That must mean that things are just fine for everyone. Well, despite your perfect self absorption, you didn't even notice the blaring five-alarm fire that you admitted to in your own post. You said "Sure there's a wait sometimes..." WTF?? There's a wait? Some governmental bureaucrat is going to decide that you get to see a doctor or not. Well, lucky you. This is what we're talking about. You're not a doctor. How in the name of everything holy would you know that your needs were minor? Neither you nor some bureaucrat could possibly know that. The only person who knows that is the doctor -- the doctor that you should have seen on the first day. Tell me, Canuck, how many Canadians have died waiting to see a doctor for something that was not "life-threatening"?
4. "Human health care should be for human health, and not profit." Astounding. Presumably, doctors shouldn't make more than bus drivers. News flash -- it's profitable because people and organizations are providing a service that consumers WANT to pay for. Take the profit out and you get crap for health care. This is why research and development of new drugs and procedures in the US occurs at such a vastly greater rate than it does in Britain, France, Canada, Croatia and Cuba (hah! I'm still laughing about you bringing up Cuba.)
But you're right about one thing -- Americans definitely have to pay a lot more for co-pays that don't cover all expenses. Canadian patients don't get the bill on those procedures because they never receive the procedures at all.
You were kind enough to give some links that I checked out. I will respond to those as well. As for your first link, please check out Chapter 7 in the link below. The whole link is 134 pages long and is riddled with facts, so I doubt you'll have any interest in reading the whole thing. But like I said, read Chapter 7 -- it addresses precisely the statistics that you cited in your link. The chapter is more than a page long, but not much more than that, so it's a quick read.
As for talking to you after Sicko comes out, I would be happy to do so. I think that you were sincere in this invitation and I take the invitation sincerely. I would like to continue the debate then. If Michael Moore's previous films are any indication of the sort of honesty that we will see in Sicko, then I think that we will have a lot to talk about, indeed.
My comment: I don't think health care, housing, or food should be a right. It should be a privlege.
Our healthcare system is pretty screwed up as it is... there is plenty of wait time for us too... try making an appointment at the dentist for checkups, the doctor for a physical, the gyno, a healthy baby checkup etc. etc. Our health insurance system is screwed too... do you think it's wise to have some administrator in some government office decide when healthcare should be covered and what not? What about an HMO office? What's the difference?
Socialist economics is good for somethings (i.e. utilities, public education, welfare safety nets), bad for others (i.e. rent, healthcare, internet).
2. what singular concern does a profit driven system run off of?
3. Good question, I wonder what percentage of patients in the US or other countries have either died or had major complications due to stupid administrative hurdles put there by government or administrative staff at our insurance companies' offices?
referring to point 1 above, it's just as screwy here as anywhere else because stupid administrative idiots make decisions as to what is covered by HMO or PPO, not the doctors administering the care.
Okay. So what? They had a problem regarding aged patients, and introduced measures to fix it. So what?
A WOMAN FUCKING DIED ON A HOSPITAL ROOM FLOOR IN YOUR COUNTRY!! LOOK AT THE VIDEO AGAIN!! And you're talking about a bullshit minor article in a UK website?? Jesus Christ, man!! WAKE UP!!! WAKE...THE FUCK...UP!!!
It's refreshing to fianlly see an average Yank come at me with at least an ATTEMPT at some discourse or debate, as opposed to the usual "You're a FAG!", or "You SUCK!". Shit, I'll even give you points for trying to bring UP POINTS (even though you still fall into the Americanized trap of labelling someone or something as "leftist" if it goes against your grain). Be that as it may, I'll address each one you've brought up as clearly and as briefly (!) as I can. NOW PAY ATTENTION! :
1. The WHO is NOT a "leftist" organization, k? It's an arm of the U.N., much like the World Trade Organization (that's WTO), or any other branch of the World Body. Last I checked, YOU folks were still members. So, to use YOUR reasoning, the U.S. is a part of this "leftist" organization, right? Riiiiight. You missed the entire point of what I said. I clearly said that there ARE talented doctors and nurses in the U.S., and never once questioned the QUALITY of their services. At all. The main thrust of my argument was the ACCESSABILITY of said services. If you're in need a of liver, a kidney or even just need a lousy fucking appendectomy, then you better be able to fork over the dough to pay for it; and if you ain't got the green, you go without. And THAT, my friend, IS FUCKED UP!! Do you realize that a whopping majority of Americans who go to apply for, say, a bank loan or a mortgage already have outstanding debts on the credit records that are a result of DOCTORS BILLS??? You think this is normal? You think having a price put on some kind of life-saving procedure for yourself is...what?....ok? The rest of your life is spent in debt, because you simply wanted to NOT DIE? And you defend this system? Okayyyy, fine. Be my guest. Gee whiz, it kinda makes sense when your health care system gets ranked the way it does, considering that simple fact, don't it? Oh, as far as your examples of VA hospitals go, Walter Reed is a classic example. Under the Glorious Republicans, most of your VA hospital services were PRIVATIZED!! Yes, you heard correctly. PRIVATIZED. Walter Reed is just the most glaring example. If the government was actually INVOLVED in running this joint, those unfortunate soldiers WOULD have recieved the proper care they deserve and are entitled to. But someone wanted to make a PROFIT. Well, they did. And unfortunately...someone got fucked. As far as your COUNTY hospital excuses goe, here's yet another example of you looking at everything through an "American" lens. NO hospital up here is run like a "COUNTY" hospital in the U.S., ok? What is it about "It's not the same" don't you GET? IF the entire U.S. adopted a universal health care system, you automatically get all the checks-and-balances that go with it, i.e., strict compliance with health issues and policies, your level of care WILL not depend on your income, etc. Just because you have a half-assed attempt at having COUNTY hospitals, and when something goes wrong with one of them, is NOT a valid comparison. That a very far cry from having stringent, across-the-board monitoring as a whole. See, it's like this: I have NO problem with profit and capitalism. None at all. Fuck, my own parents came to Canada in 1960, fleeing an oppressive comminist dictatorship from eastern europe. However, "capitalism" (much like religion, alcohol, politics, or whatever) can be taken TOO FAR. And in terms of basic, fundamental health care in the U.S......it has gone too far. And you only give credence to the argument people use, when they say "Americans only care about money. Period." You do that as soon as you equate health care and peoples' lives with being a "service". Sure profits are based on service. Okay fine. BUT LEAVE HUMAN HEALTH CARE OFF THE FUCKING TABLE!!
2. Oh fuck, I can't believe you just said that. "My hatred for the U.S."??? Gimme a fuckin' break. I suppose if I said "George Bush is a fucking moron" that makes me "anti-U.S.", right? Or "Dick Cheney is a lying piece of shit"...that makes me "anti-U.S.", right? Stop it, will ya? Just because I (or anyone else) points out a flaw or has a criticism about someone or something or some SYSTEM in the U.S., it does NOT make me (or them) automatically "anti-U.S.", ok? You folks really have to start taking off your blinders, ok?
3. Yeah, there's a wait sometimes up here, and I don't like it. BUT READ MY WHOLE POST! See, this is the problem with your argument: you never once disputed ANYTHING I've said about the U.S. health care system being driven by profit. NOT ONCE. So I guess I'm right about that. However, as someone who's been born, raised and living up here...you act like a know-it-all, and don't even PAY AATENTION to what I'm saying. No "government bureaucrat" EVER has a say in who gets health care here. Never been the case. Rather, that is something YOUR corporate HMO's do for YOU. Sometimes there's a wait time because of overcrowding in the emergency room. That's all. And IF my situation was dire and life-threatening, I get shuffled to the front of the line. It's called "PRIORITIZING". And I still get seen. But YOU go crazy when the word "wait" is used. That's the product of being raised in a money-driven environment. "What?? Wait?? I'm an Amercian, and I've got MONEY, so we don't WAIT!!" Bottom line is this: If I need the care...I get it. Like I have many times before. The quality was great. The people were great. And no bill. If you want to treat health care like service you pay for at a restaurant..be my guest. "Canadians don't get these procedures"? Not even gonna bother with THAT one. Challenge for you: If you can dig me up ONE...JUST ONE....example of a Canadian dying like the woman in this video did, or even ANY Canadian dying because they couldn't see a doctor in a timely fashion...I'll eat my skid-marked shorts. Go ahead, Bucko. I'll be waiting.
3. So you think because you have a profit-driven health care system, you think that makes you leaders in medical research, as opposed to an environment with universal health care? Hmm........
We invented insulin.
You're welcome.
4. Touchy about Cuba, ain't ya? Why the hard-on for them? I'll tell you why in a nutshell: before Castro took power, President Batista ruled that island with a brutal, corrupt fist. He had hired goons, a private army, and corruption that would make the entire Bush Administration look like saints. And guess what? He was put there by....YOU FOLKS!! But then people got kinda tired of being bullied and pushed around, y'know? So this guy Castro takes over, and what does he do? Well, the first thing he does is start rounding up all the CIA-backed sympathizers and supporters, and puts them on trial. Buh-bye. Gone to jail. Then , he booted out all the organized crime figures that were starting to set up shop. The mob. Gone. Buh-bye (this, of course, lead to Mr. Bugsy Siegal deciding to buy real estate in a lovely piece of desert which later came to be called "Las Vegas"). But Castro, he's still in the U.S's good books, see? So there he is, showing up in New York, shaking hands with his good buddy Richard Nixon, smiling and all. Then guess what? He asks the the big oil companies operating in Cuba (Texaco, Exxon, BP) to refine crude oil imported from--GASP!!--the SOVIET UNION!! Of course, they balk at this, and say "no way, muchacho". Castro says "Okay, fuck you. I'm gonna nationalize all of our industries. Go on. get the fuck out." Suddenly, all these American corporations were told to beat it. Then, he went on to implement universal education, universal health care, got rid of every bribed and corrupted official he could find, etc. Of course, this all lead to subsequent assassination attempts by the CIA, the Bay of Pigs fiasco, and on and on. And what was Uncle Sams response? A useless embargo that's lasted almost 50 years, and outlived at least half a dozen presidents.
So enough with all the "Cuba is evil" shit, ok? Don't you think the U.S. has made their lives miserable enough already? Besides, their health care system DOES work, and it's better than yours (even OURS, for that matter).
5. The world has seen examples of the U.S. trying to "spread democracy". Please stop, ok? I don't think the world can take it anymore. In the last 50 years alone (not counting Cuba), your efforts at "regime changes" have resulted in nothing but problems (the CIA term for this is called "blowback"). Having lots of money and a powerful military NEVER equated with having the wisdom to know when or when NOT...to use it.
The United States has NOT fully separated church and state, ok? Do you realize how many evangelical christian nutjobs are have currently infilitrated the White House? Or even the PENTAGON, fer chrissakes? And why is it that every presidential candidates personal religion is always an issue?? Like, who gives a rat-fuck WHAT his/her religion is? No stem cell research because it's "unchristian"?? Ah, no my friend. You're currently living in a THEOCRACY right now, if not in name, but in practice. Granted, it's a milder form of what you'd find in some middle east countries, but it's still a theocracy. Now, just to show you I'm not all that bad of a "leftist", I'll issue this to YOU, Joe: you get on your little keyboard there, and use your fingers to tell me the following (and MEAN it):
"Religion does not in any way, shape or form play ANY role in policy or decision-making, in Washington."
If you say that with a straight-face and MEAN it...I'll shut my yap about this particular subject once-and-for-all.
"I'm saving America one soul at a time."
-----George W. Bush
It's always those sudden upper-cuts that knock ya flat everytime.
Now watch them all flip out when I reveal to them who their BIGGEST oil supplier is. LOLOLOL
But...next up...I will take it upon myself to give them a CONVINCING, LOGICAL explanation IN ONE PARAGRAPH of how, if I were President of those United States, I would introduce efficient, accountable and reliable universal health care for each and every single man, woman, child and Republican in the Union. It will be such a proposal, that will be IMPERVIOUS to any nutty right-wing, fear-mongering retort "they" can muster.
And not only will "they" agree with it.....but "they" will EMBRACE it.
"If you're in need a of liver, a kidney or even just need a lousy fucking appendectomy, then you better be able to fork over the dough to pay for it; and if you ain't got the green, you go without." LIE.
'What?? Wait?? I'm an Amercian, and I've got MONEY, so we don't WAIT!!" LIE
Why does Canada send patients to the U.S. for cancer treatment if your health care is soo much better?
You cant invent something that is naturally in your body (insulin), unless you are implying that Canada is the creator of life.
If Cuba is so great why are people dying on rafts to try and escape?
And as far as having a powerful military and knowing when to use it, if it wasn't for the U.S. someone would have taken over your country along time ago.
that has nothing to do with ignorance dude. i AM 100% thinking for myself in this matter. i just agree with what he has to say. just because i'm canadian doesn't mean my opinion is going to be biast. i'm just in agreeance.
no need to attack me because it doesn't flow smoothly with what you have to say.
so you 100% thought that Canada "invented" insulin? i wasn't attacking you, being ignorant is not necessarily a bad thing, just means you are misinformed. if you did the smallest amount of research into what canuck was saying you'd realize that most of what he presents as facts are only his opinion, if you choose to believe it, shame on you.
i thought this was a forum ? how can you tell me i should feel shame because of my opinion dude ? you're just contradicting yourself. this whole 12 page debate over the health care system is all based on opinion. and ya know what, it will probably never end.
No, you should feel shame for being so blind you believe someone who tells you insulin was "invented" by Canada, please tell me who invented blood? Who invented the liver? I won't reply to you anymore, I don't want to hurt your feelings.
I KNOW it's a hard thing for to grasp, so I'll deal with FACTS, ok? NOT "opinions". FACTS. So please...PAY ATTENTION:
1. Two Canadian doctors invented "insulin" at the University of Toronto, prior to which diabetes meant a short life-span and a quick death sentence. While definitely NOT a cure, it has eased a lot of suffering and prolonged millions of peoples' lives. They sold the patent on it for $1 (that's ONE dollar), with the idea being that EVERYONE will have access to this drug. Their names were Dr. Frederick Banting and Charles Best. YOUR buddy, JOEY, said that no worthy medical research happens in a system governed by universal health care. In that context, my comment simply shot him down. How? Simple, Bro: it's a fact. Soooooo.....turn off Fox News....and go look it up. ANYWHERE.
2. Okay fine. You'll get a liver or kidney transplant if you need one in the U.S. Hell, an appendectomy, even. Fine. BUT YOU'LL BE PAYING FOR IT OUT OF YOUR OWN POCKET FOR A LONG, LONG, LOOOOOONG TIME. That's my whole point. Please fucking READ what I write...ok?
3. Good point. Yes, Canada DOES send patients to the U.S. sometimes for whatever specific treatment they need. Although it can sometimes be for cancer treatments, it can also be for other things: sometimes hip replacements, knee operations, sometimes laser surgery, and at other times for other ailments. But here's where your sight through an "American lens" betrays you: when Canadian patients are sent to these locales.....the government pays for it. Hear me? THEY COME BACK WITHOUT A BILL. It still falls under universal health care, baby. Now I've never personally known of anyone who got sent to the U.S. for treatment, but that means nothing. I'm smart enough to know it does happen from time-to-time. And it's a win-win: The government fulfills its obligation to look after the health of its citizenry; the greedy, money-driven, blood-sucking U.S. clinic gets its dough; and.....WAIT FOR IT....the patient gets their care, and comes clean without a bill.
Did I let you down? Was it a hard fall? Watch your head. If you're hurt, get your credit card out. Sowwwy.
4. I didn't say Cuba was "great". (Dammit, READ what I write!). In a nutshell, I basically said they had their shit together. That's all. Do they have elections? No, and I wish they did. Do they have a long way to go as far as having a robust economy goes? For sure. Are people trying to reach the U.S. in rafts? Sure...from time-to-time. Look: the last time they did this was in the early 80's, when Castro got so sick of the U.S. pissing and moaning about his "human rights abuses". Know what he did? He said, "Okay fine. YOU care so much about this scum? Fine. YOU take them." So guess what? HE EMPTIES ALL HIS FUCKING JAILS, AND SAYS TO THESE PEOPLE, "GO TO AMERICA. THEY WANT YOU. THEY LOVE YOU." Before you can say "Love Boat", there's a huge FLOTILLA of these so-called "Cuban Refugees" headed towards Key West. It was the U.S Coast Guards worst fucking nightmare. And the period AFTER they landed, became known in Miami as "The Cuban Crime Wave". Drugs, cocaine, gangs, shoot-outs, the whole enchilada. "Refugee"s ? Yeah, ok right.
4. Ummm..errr...as far as your reply comment about the military goes.....that might PARTIALLY be true. If the U.S. protects us, it sure ain't because YOU'RE NICE FOLKS AND WOULD GLADLY DO THAT, 'CUZ GOSH DARN IT, IT'S THE AMERICAN WAY! No. You do it because it's in your own national and business interests to do so. Period. We serve a purpose. We are of use to you. If we did not serve that purpose, then you'd give as much a fuck about us as a flea in the wind. The last time your country was in its glory was World War II: you were loved, respected and admired, and had every right to all of it. You fought (eventually) not just because of Pearl Harbour; not just because of self-serving business interests....but because it was RIGHT to do so. You are not THAT country anymore. Nor have you been, for a long, long time now. And you know it. You KNOW it.
And as to another country potentially invading Canada? It's happened because one already has, with armies and ships and bombs and all:
The United States of America.
In 1812.
And we burned down the White House for your troubles.
As usual for you canuck you run off at the mouth again and further solidify the fact that you dont know what you are talking about:
1. Insulin (from Latin insula, "island", as it is produced in the Islets of Langerhans in the pancreas) is an anabolic polypeptide hormone that regulates carbohydrate metabolism. Apart from being the primary agent in carbohydrate homeostasis, it has effects on fat metabolism and it changes the liver's activity in storing or releasing glucose and in processing blood lipids, and in other tissues such as fat and muscle. The amount of insulin in circulation has extremely widespread effects throughout the body.
Insulin is used medically to treat some forms of diabetes mellitus. Patients with type 1 diabetes mellitus depend on external insulin (most commonly injected subcutaneously) for their survival because of an absolute deficiency of the hormone. Patients with type 2 diabetes mellitus have insulin resistance, relatively low insulin production, or both; some type 2 diabetics eventually require insulin when other medications become insufficient in controlling blood glucose levels.
Insulin is composed of 51 amino acid residues and has a molecular weight of 5808 Da.
Insulin's structure varies slightly between species of animal. Insulin from animal sources differs somewhat in regulatory function strength (ie, in carbohydrate metabolism) in humans because of those variations. Porcine (pig) insulin is especially close to the human version.
It was not "invented" it was discovered, two totally different things. Like I said you can't invent something that body naturally makes.
2. "If you're in need a of liver, a kidney or even just need a lousy fucking appendectomy, then you better be able to fork over the dough to pay for it; and if you ain't got the green, you go without." your words not mine, you should read what you post.
3. A country who can't care for their very small population, yea sounds like a great plan. The benifit of having to pay for medical care is you don't have everybody with a cough or bump or bruise clogging up the system preventing people with real problems to get help. And you never did address the issue of even small towns in the U.S. have MRI capabilites, how long is the wait for someone in Canada? Yea, the wait does make a difference, I can wait a few hours for one in the U.S. or a few weeks in Canada, hard choice to make.
4. (the first #4) No one ever refered to Cuba as being "evil", and why do you care if they have elections? You really would be better off if you worried more about educating yourself on the subjects you claim to know so much about instead of worring about other countries.
4. (the second #4) I never said it was out of niceness, it is obliviously to extend our borders, that is the purpose you serve, you can't even admit that we protect you, "If the U.S. protects us" we do and you know it. And also, the place is not spelled "Pearl Harbour" it is spelled Pearl Harbor, your from Canada and have different english than the U.S. but the least you could do is spell the name of a place correctly. I am also realizing that you have a different number system in Canada ,I was going to let it slide the first time you counted wrong, but two times? 1 2 3 3 4 5 and 1 2 3 4 4? Please explain to me how your number system works? Or mabey just dont use numbers if its too much for you.
Your friend Robby
P.S. Just because I don't like you or the way you TRY to talk down to people doesn't make me a bigot, I don't have a problem with Canadians in general, just the people like you.
Whoever said that healthcare was a human right anyway?
I guess the government in Canada (and in the UK for that matter where I grew up) don't have the confidence that its people can make their own decisions on how take care of themselves.
Ya know what you just did, don't you? You've engaged in the old fallback strategy of "splitting pubic hairs". In the interests of keeping my good friend above, Mr. Throbstick (as well as yourself) entertained, I'll answer your points by being LESS VERBOSE. Here we go...once more...WITH GUSTO:
1. Fine. That's a very lovely definition of "insulin" you gave. Very accurate. So if it makes you THAT happy, and that's ALL you have, I'll re-phrase: We D-I-S-C-O-V-E-R-E-D it. Or rather, in our universal health care system, we did our research, and we DISCOVERED how to apply it to treat diabetes. Happy now? (Although how that changes my original point...I dunno.)
2. Already clarified. In the U.S., if you need a major operation, you go into huge debt. Simple as that. And that's fucking plain WRONG, dude, no matter how many ways to Sunday you cut it. And yes, there HAVE been ordinary, hard-working Americans who HAVE died, simply because their claims for an operation have been denied. Just that simple.
3. It's NOT a question of our country not being able to "care for a small population"; I never said it was a "perfect" system, either....BUT....would I ever trade it for the U.S. model? Not in a million fucking years (and neither would those other nations). It's simply a question of the patient GETTING THE CARE....and not having to pay for it the rest of their lives. Now think about this for a sec: look back over EVERYTHING I've said, excluding the blustering rhetoric I employ at times; trust me when I tell you, that if things were THAT bad in universal health care enviroment, I'd tell you. Hands-down-flat. I'd be the first to bitch about it. BUT IT AIN'T SO. After having been born and raised here, I'm TELLING YOU that "socialized health care" is not something to fear. All that crap that your pharmaceutical and insurance industries have fed you? It's just THAT...crap. Your health care is determined by company shareholders. Period. They make money....by denying Americans....procedures, as well as their CLAIMS for said procedures. If they didn't...they'd never be in business. Like I said, if that's system YOU believe in....... have at it, McFly.
4. Ummm...no..I don't worry about Cuba all that much. YOU displayed an ignorance about that country (repeatedly) and gave me an opportunity to educate you a little bit about that which you ridicule and were taught to hate so much. That's all. As for "worrying about other countries", I think your government does a pretty good job on that on their own (Vietnam, Iraq, Panama, El Slavador, Chile, Grenada, etc).
5. In Canada, "harbour" has a "u" (much like "colour"), so from MY point of view, it's correct. Remember what I said about the mentality y'all had? "If it ain't American....it ain't good." Well, too bad. Happy to be different from Y'ALL. Too fuckin' bad. And unlike YOURSELF, WE spell "maybe" as "MAYBE"...not "mabey". Point back at ya. The numbers? OHHH NOOO!! I GOT MY NUMBERS OUTTA SEQUENCE!! HORROR OF HORRORS!! Dude, seriously. Izzat the best ya got? Please. You were doing so well with the articulate insulin argument (if not splitting hairs), that you have to SINK to pointing out non-sequential numbers and missing letters??? You started to give me hope..and then went down hill. Disappointed.
6. Never denied the U.S. wasn't protecting us. My only point was that they do it, because we serve a business interest, that's all. And NOT because the U.S. government is staffed with a bunch of generous, kind-hearted folk who love us. We are your chief oil supplier. That's all. And natural gas. And electricity. And coal. And timber. Comprendo? And you can thank whatever deity you believe in that I'm not the Prime Minister running the ship up here. Know why? After 5 minutes of talking to that little, illiterate twerp you have in that Oval Office, I'd be shutting off ALL the fucking taps, PRONTO, with a clear message: don't call us, we'll call you (preferably when Al Gore or ANY Democrat is sitting there). If you ever put Mcain or Romney or any of those other retards in there, then get ready for a brutally long winter and get lots of blankets. You're gonna need'em.
Did you get all that, Robbie?
A mind is a terrible thing to waste. SO DON'T DO IT.
Besides, I only SOUND like I'm "talking down" to people, when they come at me with foolish and ill-thought out arguments. It's my nature: I never suffered fools lightly.
I guess that's why this whole thing blows me away: contrary to one of them labelling me as "anti-Amercian", the irony is that I'm actually PRO-American, because I believe that the basic principles they founded their nation upon are GOOD principles, i.e., freedom and free-speech, equality, fairness. etc. I guess it just saddens me to see all that become moot, because the population has been purposefully lied to, and isolated by whom? A bunch of corrupt, fear-mongering stuffed shirts who'd rather spend a gazillion dollars on some multiple warheads, rather than on Little Jimmys kidney? Sad. Completely fucking sad.
Speaking of which, Mr. Arnold was in town 'bout a week and a half ago.
Apparently, between him and McGuinty, Ontario and California have co-signed some kind of clean-air or pollution reduction thingy. Don't know much about it. I'll look into it down the road.
Well ...........at least we don't stand up for our elected officials regardless of their incompetence. God Bless America (and all the shit they have to endure)
Well, I've got to give them a point on that one. As ashamed as I am to say it, I still work in.....(cough..cough) Imperial. That should really piss off anyone outside the Commonwealth though because that is the King's measure. Thought the Yanks broke away from that nonsense.
(I can continue to do this 'cuz I'm on the graveyard shift....LOL)
Know what I just now realized?? Oh wow, this is a trip. Check this out:
Remember that movie "Planet Of The Apes"? Y'know, THE classic with Charlton Heston? It's one of my favs. Anyways, think about this:
In this movie, Heston (playing Col. Taylor) tries to convince the apes he's on the level, by basically saying "Look, lay off ok?? I can talk because I come from another planet, in another solar system (which it turns out he isn't, but it's beside the point)!! There's evidence in that cave.....", and blah-blah-blah. The apes basically say "Fuck you. You're a freak. You don't know shit about Ape Law, The Lawgiver, or our beliefs. WE'VE always been here. WE'VE always lived RIGHT. And YOU are the nutjob. Now, off to experimental brain surgery with you."
Well, you know what?
With this whole health care debate, folks like Joe, Rob, Throb, Boobhead....THEY'RE the APES!!
And I'M Col. Taylor, trying to tell them "Look, I dunno what you know, or what you THINK you know, but ya got it all wrong! You're stuck in this cultural loop, where you think this shit is all OKAY....but it ain't!! Now here's why...."
And then THEY (the apes) flip out, and say "Shaddap! You're wrong! You're a LEFTIST! You're a FREAK! How DARE you pretend you know ANYTHING about us?? Off to the veterinarian with ya!!"
NOW I just actually saw what "Joe" wrote in his post awhile back:
"People came to this country to escape religious persecution by the government, and unfortunately, it's a freedom that Canadaians are no longer able to enjoy. In case you didn't know it, Canada has made it illegal to read certain passages of the Bible."
Oh.
My.
GAWD.
Joe..like....tell me you're kidding about this. Please tell me you're kidding.
Do you know what an imbecile you just sounded like??
Where do we draw the line on human rights canuck?????
For example, the mentality in Europe is that you have a right to a job. Screw the private companies and their right to try to earn a profit, efficiency, etc. I have a right to a job. Many government programs and policies are set up to support this "right". It's virtually impossible to get rid of a lazy, good for nothing employee in France.
It's YOUR job to take care of yourself and buy the products/services you need including healthcare, higher education, etc. The taxes for roads, etc. argument above is bogus - those are benefits for the WHOLE. We're talking about YOU here. Take care of yourself and stop free-loading. If you and your family can't afford it, tough shite. Die. No one bestowed on you the right to prolong your life beyond it's natural course. I take exception to MY hard earned cash improving the life of OTHERS without input from ME. This is not selfish. I give plenty to charity, but I want to choose the organizations and individuals in some cases that I support.
Bottom line, I agree with the person early in the string who said that healthcare is a product.
"Where do we draw the line on human rights?"
How about the right to healthcare; when you’re vomiting blood and dying in a pool of your own blood on floor of a hospital foyer.
"Where do we draw the line on human rights?"
Where do we draw the line on corporate rights!
Those great private companies you talk about are only out there for one reason, and that’s to benefit themselves. They control what you see on the news, the movies and TV shows you watch, what you read in your magazines and your newspapers, the amount of money have to pay for your petrol or your pharmaceuticals and they even fund your presidential elections, putting your presidents into power. They essentially dictate the perspectives of your lives and the policy making decisions of your government, and to benefit one thing and one thing only, themselves. You think they give a rats-ass about you? These private companies continue to grow and grow, and very will become bigger then the government itself. Don't be so quick as to defend private corporations. Big American CEOs pay themselves hundreds of millions upon hundreds of millions of dollars, more money then they could possibly ever spend in 20 life times; forking money OUT of the company, while lower employees little Timmy are stuck in their six bucks an hour dead-end jobs. I wouldn’t call this efficiency. It is exactly why countries like Germany have laws that limits of what company CEOs can pay themselves according to the company, so companies AND the people can grow efficiently.
And what does supporting the right to a job have anything to do with lazy employees? In fact it would probably encourage people to get off welfare and work!
And its fair enough that you argue that its peoples responsibility to look after themselves. But that’s so very easy to say from the comfort of your home, your well priced computer, laptop, your comfy swivel chair. ALOT of people don’t have it that easy. I'm sure you work hard for it, but alot people cant even afford to get there even if they have the capabilities, you think everyone can afford a higher education? Sure its peoples responsibilities to look after themselves but some of them will never get the opportunities to do so.
You said quote:
"Take care of yourself and stop free-loading. If you and your family can't afford it, tough shite. Die. No one bestowed on you the right to prolong your life beyond it's natural course."
lol, that’s big words, I doubt you could say the same if your lying on the floor vomiting blood.
And Freeloading? You don’t get it do you, its a communal exertion, you will benefit from it just like everyone else, everyone doesn’t pay to see the GP but neither do you!
Healthcare is essential just like food, water or shelter. Try catching the flu like you always do and not do anything about it, or have a car accident and not doing anything about that, or develop an infection and not do anything about that.
Bottom line, healthcare is a product... yeah, but only in America.
canuck, you just proved how ignorant you really are, you did an internet search for Canadian inventions and saw "Insulin, Treatment for Diabetes [1921, Frederick Banting, Charles Best]" and said to yourself "oh my fucking gawd, we invented insulin wait till i show those fucking toohtless idiots from america!"
You call it splitting hairs because you cant admit that you were wrong:
INVENT: to originate or create as a product of one's own ingenuity, experimentation, or contrivance: to invent the telegraph for example.
DISCOVER: to see, get knowledge of, learn of, find, or find out; gain sight or knowledge of (something previously unseen or unknown): to discover insulin ( thank you frederick banting, charles best and all the other people who led to the DISCOVERY of insulin and how to use it to treat diabetes; to discover electricity (ben franklin, your welcome).
As far as your reference to Alaxander Graham Bell he was born in Scotland and moved to Canada with his parents when he was 23, then 1 year later he moved to Boston, Mass. where he invented the telephone, he lived in the country for 1 year only because his parents moved there.
Henry Woodward invented one of the first light bulbs which only lasted for a short time, then he sold the idea to American, Thomas Edison, who inproved it so it could be usefull in society.
You insinuate that myself and others only believe what Fox News tells us, you should really research what you post before you you post it so you dont look so foolish.
The study that joefriday posted the link to was done in Texas, but it refrences several books written by people from other countries, including Canada, try to read past the title and you would know that.
By the way this isnt about differences between Canada or America either, I got nothing against the two, I'm Australian but I rather just stay out of national conflicts.
1. both systems have their problems... managed or for profit. It's people that suck not the systems. Notice that in every case where people talk about problems with the system, it's not the system that breaks down, it's some decision by someone somewhere that caused the issue.
2. we live in a theocracy. it says on every piece of currency we have "in god we trust"
3. Insulin is created by the body. I think Canuck means that they invented a way to produce artificial insulin or natural insulin some how... I don't know the details. I'm not diabetic.
4. Canuck has a good point that most Americans (led by Bush) call anything that doesn't fit, they don't understand, or that doesn't tow the party line "anti-american" "anti-freedom" "anti-democracy" "leftist" "liberal" whatever... it's just another method of trying to avoid real issues, same as name calling, profanity etc.
5. Lastly... healthcare, food, shelter, water, love, freedom. They are not rights. They are earned.
I agree with what you said bigbad, I even agree that alot of Americans do act like anything/anyone that doesn't tow the party line is labeled "anti-american" "anti-freedom" "anti-democracy" "leftist" "liberal". It's not just the ones led by Bush, you could probably go back to any president and find that American's will defend their leader, sometimes even if the rest of the world doesn't like what they are doing, hell, most times they will. The only person I have said anything to about being anti-american is canuck because he comes across that way. In the first several post directed at canuck I lowered myself to his level with name calling and such, in the last few posts I have proved that what he says is not entirely true and mostly from something he read somewhere and decided to believe without reaserching it and finding the truth. I can handle criticism, it's the ignorance that bugs the piss out of me, the people that can't seem to admit they made a mistake.
On your last point about the things needing to be "earned": ummm...errr....isn't the concept of "love", or caring for your fellow man, or having things to survive, i.e., LIVE (water? shelter? FOOD?) supposed to be....unconditional? I mean, like, say you see a starving kid on your street or driveway, who needs water, food and medical help. You gonna go and say to him, "Beat it, kid. You haven't EARNED it"? (Or say even if it was a helpless adult?) Just curious.
This will prob. get lost in this mountain of posts... but...
It is a very difficult choice to give or not to give to a kid, adult, stray dog, whatever. So if I saw a kid on the street starving, helpless.. . it would depend on the situation. I take it on a case by case basis. I live in paradise, where there are tons of homeless people because the living is easy here and the tourists are quite generous with their money b/c they are on vacation and feel guilty.
But I choose not to give. I got over that after seeing the same people on the street year after year after year after year.
Thing is... we can all try hard to contribute to society no matter how handicapped we might be.
I think love is something we should give unconditionally, but not food, water and shelter. There are not infinite resources on this planet.
When you feed a population what happens? You get more babies.
We should teach people how to contribute, how to fend for themselves, not how to wait in line at the food truck.
What is that quote?
Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime.
Or something like that.
Lastly... I have strong opinions formed from experience and my life, and from my education. But I also know that my education and experience are limited so I try to keep my mind open to the fact that I really don't know much, and there migh be facts out there to change my opinions.
I never said that companies give a rats ass about me. It's about turning a profit for shareholders. BUT, they're not giving free prodcut away at my expense.
I can't believe that you're arguing that that people do have a right to a job!!! Absolutely not. It's conditional based on 1) a company's need for your services and 2) your ability to provide such services on sa atsifactory and consistent basis. Europe has gone too far is protecting employee rights such that it's actually become a human right to work regardless of whether the company still requires your services!!! CEOs dont' pay themselves fat salaries, the board of directors (shareholders) decide that based on supply, demand and performance.
Having lived in the UK for 19 years before moving to the states, I've seen and known too many freeloaders taking advantage of the system. Human nature I'm afraid.
Regardless, I still view healthcare as a product, not a basic human right. I agree that from a humanitarian standpoint, someone should have helped this woman, BUT I stop well short of making healthcare and welfare basic rights.
Meanwhile, I guess we'll just keep taking care of all those frightened Americans who pour north over the border to get a lousy flu shot, simply because they can't afford it.
If flu shots are free, then why the mass exodus to come up here and get them?
And the bottom line is this:
I know MORE about YOUR society (having lived, travelled and having family there), then you know about MINE (having NEVER lived, worked or possibly even travelled HERE).
In EVERY comment I've made...I've backed up.
You? You get so terrified you resort to splitting hairs, because it's all you've got to work with.
The SUBSTANCE of EVERYTHING I've said is correct.
The only valid disagreement between us, is the difference in philosophy about whether health care constitutes a RIGHT, or a PRIVILEDGE. That's it.
All other things I've indicated are FACTS; FACTS which I've backed up time and time again. I gave you the FACTS, and what was your response?
You pick out missing letters....non-sequential numbers....hair-splitting arguments.
Which one are YOU? Cornelius? Dr. Zais? Zira?
LIke I said...truth hurts. You're just pissed at the messenger.
you have not backed up most of what you have said, it's not splitting hairs it's right and wrong, invent and discover are two totally different things. You have only given your "facts" that you read and didn't look into to make sure they were correct. Your challenge was to prove you wrong about what you said, tell me what was wrong about any of this:
As far as your reference to Alaxander Graham Bell he was born in Scotland and moved to Canada with his parents when he was 23, then 1 year later he moved to Boston, Mass. where he invented the telephone, he lived in the country for 1 year only because his parents moved there.
Henry Woodward invented one of the first light bulbs which only lasted for a short time, then he sold the idea to American, Thomas Edison, who improved it so it could be usefull in society.
Instead of just simply saying thats its wrong try and tell me what is wrong about what I said.
Good for you Canuck for sticking this one out. Amazing reading through this whole thread and seeing how Americans and Canadians alike agree with the overall moral issues here. Don't worry about the adversarial pinhead types. Small minds are hard to change. Cheers!
Here is another of your stories, you said Americans were going to Canada because they couldn't afford the flu shot, the correct story is that there was a shortage of the vaccine in 2004 which was why they were going to Canada, not because of the cost, another of your half true, half lie stories.
You wanna split hairs again? Okay, fine. I'll toy a little bit with your insecurities. Here goes:
1. EVERYTHING I've told you, about EVERYTHING (the discovery/invention of "insulin" (I noticed you neglected to mention the cancer radiation machine invention...you're welcome about THAT, too); Cuba; the U.S. being a mild theocracy, failing to separate church and state; the idea of Americans being taught from birth of having to PAY the doctor; HMO's; MRI's; Pearl HarboUr; World War II; Walter Reed Army Hosptial; CO-PAYS; light bulbs......and on and on ad nauseum. It's a tough thing to accept that maybe....just MAYBE....you've been on the wrong channel most of your life. It can be scary. But, thankfully, SOME (like Mr. Wolf above) see that something ain't quite right, and are at least WILLING to explore it.
As for Alex Bell, here's the problem with HIM: The U.S. and Canada have BOTH been claiming this guy as their own prodigal son for YEARS. And guess what? They BOTH have valid reasons to do so. No one to this day has ever made a successful challenge on it. Basically, both countries have basically said to one another "fuck you, we'll do it anyways." So, the Alex Bell issue (for the purposes of this thread) may or may not be a draw. And here's why: Bell became a naturalized U.S. citizen in 1882. He died in 1922 in Nova Scotia (specifically Cape Breton, if I recall), and is buried there.....as a Canadian citizen. Dual citizenship, baby, dual citizenship. A pity you didn't know that such a thing was possible between the two nations.
So there ya go.
By all means, please continue to split hairs, argue, and DENY-DENY-DENY-DENYYYYYY!!!!!!! But until you can come up with something...ANYTHING...that proves me to be ABSOLUTELY DEAD WRONG, in glaring "black-and-white" kinda way, then ROB, please, fer fuck sakes...at LEAST have temerity to say "You know what? I may hate your stinking guts and the way you say things, but that does NOT negate the SUBSTANCE or CONTENTS of what you're saying. Maybe I'll stop nitpicking some at words you use, and actually LOOK at what you're saying."
FACTS.
I posted several links above, in the last 194 posts....only heard comments about TWO.
WHO CARES IF THEY'RE COMING ACROSS THE BORDER FOR FLU SHOTS, BECAUSE OF "AFFORDABILITY" OR "AVAILABILITY"???? HUH?? YOU'RE TRYING TO BE THE LAWYER AGAIN, LOOKING OVER A CONTRACT FOR PRECISE WORDING!!! lolol THE POINT IS THAT YOUR SYSTEM IS NO GODDAMN GOOD!! HENCE, THEY'RE COMING UP HERE TO GET IT!! GET IT??? Like shit man......all you did was furthur prove my point!! Let me say it again: your goddamn profit-driven, dollar-rules-all health care system, that lets people die like fuckin' dogs on a HOSPITAL FLOOR IS NO FUCKING GOOD!!! Have you got THAT, CORNELIUS???
Well finally we agree on something, it is about words, true ones and false ones, you write false words and claim they are true, I am not looking for precise wording, just true words. If you call the truth splitting hairs, I gues I'll have to keep on spliting when I am referring to you. Once again since you don't seem to understand:
INVENT: to originate or create as a product of one's own ingenuity, experimentation, or contrivance: to invent the telegraph for example.
DISCOVER: to see, get knowledge of, learn of, find, or find out; gain sight or knowledge of (something previously unseen or unknown): to discover insulin ( thank you frederick banting, charles best and all the other people who led to the DISCOVERY of insulin and how to use it to treat diabetes; to discover electricity (ben franklin, your welcome).
Two totally different words, not splitting hairs, the words do not mean the same thing. You do understand the difference, don't you? That is where you are dead wrong, you can not invent something that the body makes all on its own, no matter how much you say it, it can't be done, sorry. Like I said in an earlier post, half true/half lie, either way you are trying to mislead and it aint gunna work with me. Still waiting to see where in your words:
"Meanwhile, I guess we'll just keep taking care of all those frightened Americans who pour north over the border to get a lousy flu shot, simply because they can't afford it."
What you consider splitting hairs I call telling the true story. Also, one person died because of a tragic mistake by one hospital, this is not the norm.
If you read my posts you will see that I have never once tried to say that our health care system was the best, only that it is not what you are claiming it is.
It's no fucking good, Rob. Period. I say so. The W.H.O. says so. The rest of the world says so. And a growing number of Americans are STARTING to say so.
Is OUR system perfect? No. And I've said that.
BUT.......
Is it BETTER than the U.S. model?
EVERYTHING I've said thus far (and you can get hung up on the wordage all you like) points to the focal point of my whole argument, the answer which is thus:
See? I WAS wrong about ONE thing! Apparently, the United States is NOT ranked almost "dead last" according to the World Health Organization; rather, it is #37 (behind Costa Rica (#36), but before Slovenia (#38).......lol). Also, much to my own surprise, Canada is #30! Australia clocked in at #32. And the United Kingdom is #18 ! (suck on THAT one, Throb!) And who's Numero Uno? Why gee, it's YOUR good buddies...France!! LOL Gee, Joe (and boobhead and Rob and Throb), now WHAT do you suppose all those "socialist backward countries" (and you included us in there), especially the ones in the top ten....are doing that puts them them AHEAD of the U.S. providing TIMELY, QUALITY health care to its citizens, in spite of being so gosh-darn fucking RICH?? Hmmmmmmmm......... I wonderrrrrrr.....could it beeeeee......I dunnnnoooooo....LACK OF A PROFIT-DRIVEN SYSTEM THAT ISN'T RUN LIKE BURGER KING???? LOL
"In North America, Canada rates as the country with the fairest mechanism for health system finance – ranked at 17-19, while the United States is at 54-55. Cuba is the highest among Latin American and Caribbean nations at 23-25."
Rob? Get on it. Arrange for a coup d'etat to get that illiterate, lying little pipsqueak outta that office, and set up ME as the new Provisional President. I can fix this shit in THIRTY (30) days! I swear.
THIRTY DAAAAAAAYYYYYYSSSSSS.
After I'm done, Y'ALL ARE GONNA BE NUMBAH ONE IN TERMS OF EVERYTHING!!
First, we turn each state into a province, then....oh never mind. I'll explain after I'm sworn in.
Yes,
I agree with you that there are people that will try to abuse the system and there will always be a small sum of people that will try to do so and there should be organisms set up to counter that.
Yes,
I do believe that the choices European countries are making in terms of work morality is good, although I wouldn’t go as far to say that it’s a human right. And yes, with any system there are flaws, and theirs is far from perfect, but the direction in which they are heading serves a better purpose for the company, the workers and the society.
American CEO’s and directors may not have a direct choice in their salary but they do have a direct influence on salaries that is far beyond their spending capabilities; at the expense of lower payed workers and consumers.
But I think this is beside the point and we’re just getting over our head in terms of the argument.
Theocracy, insulin, anti-Americans, whatever.
The fact is the current American health care system is not efficient at an Individual level, a National level and essentially a Global level. Where other countries choose to move forward, you still choose to cling to your ideals. It’s a healthcare system that doesn’t centre on healthcare but finance. It fails to maintain a balanced and reliable level of medical service to the vast majority of its people.
And we all know this, if you want to deny it or not!
And Yes,
I still believe that healthcare is a right, just like food, water and shelter. It is essential for survival for any human being! I don’t care how tough they are or how big their penis is! And I will continue to strongly believe in this.
And anyone who continues to agree with the inequality of basic human rights should really reconsider rethinking the roots of their ideals, values and goals; if not their lives.
Next time I visit Ayers Rock, I'm gonna stop on top of it, and sing a song in your honoUr.....lol
(if you happen to find a gnarly, crazy lady wandering around the base of that rock, ignore her; it's my mother-in-law. I'm sure the dingos will take care of things)
canuck, the several posts after where I was trying to put that link in give the rest of it, I don't know why it would not all go in but if I try and type it in like it is suposed to be it doesnt post, if it matters and you still want to check it, after what is posted you have to add:
the and symbol, id, =, and then 3534743.
Also I have never debated you on where the U.S healthcare system ranked, just that it was not as terriable as you made it out to be, it's obliviously not the best, but people do not die on emergency room floors every day, in fact I will make the same deal you did, if you can show me another story where someone died in an emergency room waiting area with nobody helping them I will eat my "skid stained shorts".
And I've noticed that your last few post have not been riddled with profanity, I'm kinda impressed, it makes you sound more intellegent, I didn't think you had it in you.
As far as overthrowing the government and putting you in cahrge, sorry, but I do love my country, even with our flaws. The only other place I would want to live is Germany, it's a beautiful country with wonderful people.
This discussion has been entertaing to say the least, wonder what we can argue about next? If you ever plan a trip to Michigan let me know, maybe I'll buy you a beer, I might spit in it before I give it to ya, but I'll buy it.
Who said anything about inequality of human rights? I'm saying that healthcare is a human right FOR NO ONE. Equality. Survival of the fittest. Should the fittest choose to help those less fortunate, so be it, but I don't believe it should be an obligation.
Well, then you should really consider why you think that way and the reasons behind that. I derno, read some books, journal articles, do some academic research, you’ll be surprised.
But I understand this is a matter of your opinion and I respect that.
But in my eyes healthcare IS a human right, and so does the World Health Organisation, and so does the vast majority of the industrialised world! That’s why a health system that is set out only to benefit itself financially and efficiently service only the privileged minority, not the majority; is an inequality in itself, and essentially an inequality of rights. I hope you can understand this.
In terms of survival of the fittest, that’s normally more related to natural selection through biological adaptation. In which case, these days even the fittest; with biological advantages over others could count for naught if born into the wrong, family or neighbourhood or economic status etc.
But I recognize where you’re coming from, if referring survival of the fittest in terms of biological advantages “and” socio-economics (which actually is more positively correlated to success then biology. E.g. how rich and powerful your family is; is actually a better predictor of your success then you’re actual IQ, not surprisingly).
In that case, should the “fittest” be obligated to help the “less fortunate”?
May I say that, they probably wouldn’t be so “less fortunate” if you had helped them in the first place.
In terms of national healthcare, this is your countrymen you’re talking about! Not some guys from another country, these are your own people, they sweep your streets, run your trains, drive you buses, fix your cars, clean your toilets, fight your wars, they could be your father, your mother, your sisters, brothers, cousins, and your friends.
So should the “fittest” be obligated to help the “less fortunate”?
This is a very broad and conceptual question, in which I probably don’t want to get involved in.
But in terms on national healthcare, YES.
I think I understand your biggest fear about this, is the sum of individuals who will try to abuse this system if it was to happen. But just like all systems they are not perfect and will require tweaking, and of cause there should be ways to stop this from happening.
But come on man, if you don’t give it a chance nothing is ever going to happen.
And the facts still stand that the current American healthcare model is disproportioned and indifferent and not efficient as it could be, by far.
Again I understand that this plays upon a lot of social opinions, which I respect.
But keep in mind opinions are also greatly influenced by society themselves.
I hope you can come to understand my point of view of healthcare, which is greatly the point of view of the vast majority of the industrialised world and the W.H.O.
Done deal on that beer (although I'll be checking it REAL careful-like, before I take that first sip).
As far as your wager goes, you might be surprised to know about how many U.S. citizens actually DID die, as a result of their HMO's denying their claims. Although, obviously not as horrendous as the example shown on this video clip, it is still nonetheless, just as awful. And just as tragic. Death is death, dude. And it sucks all the more, when it could have been prevented, and wasn't. Just because someone, somewhere....wanted to make a few bucks.
So I guess my last question to YOU is thus:
Would YOU trade the U.S. health care model (with all its flaws and imperfections)...with the Canadian model (yes, with all of ITS flaws and imperfections) as they currently stand? If you give that some very serious thought, you might be surprised with your answer.
As far as the "profanity" goes, it's like this.....ummm...well....ummm..errr....I HAVE NO FUCKIN' CLUE!!!! LOLOL (Actually, I do; I'm just in smart-ass mode).
Make note here: we WILL pick up this discussion again, after "SICKO" comes out next week, ok? Michigan, huh? Ain't Mike Moore a Michigan boy? Flint, right? He's the gutsiest documentary film maker to come from across Lake St. Clair in a long time. A pity too many of your "right wing" factions come out and label him as "leftist", "anti-Amercian" or "cocksucker".
Personally, IF I were an American, I'd consider him a genuine patriot.
Now THAT....IS my own opinion.
Loved this discussion. Honestly I did. I look forward to Glumbert putting up another clip, that will spur a lively, heated debate.
Because if there IS one thing our two nations DO share (along with Australia, Britain, etc) is the idea of free-speech, an exhange of ideas AND.....the freedom to call one another "asshole" if we so desire. Too many countries STILL don't even that basic right, so I never take it for granted.
As it stands right now, Canada being 30, and U.S. being 37, I don't think I would change to your system. I honestly don't know much about Canada's health care system, but the difference between 30 and 37 aint enouhg of a difference for me to be willing to change to it. Also, how much of a difference does population make with this system? There are a lot of questions I would need the answer's to to be able to say which system I would rather have. At this point I have not had, nor has anyone I've known had a serious issue with getting medical care. As far as dying because of being refused a procedure, I do not know of anyone, besides this case, who has been refused medical attention because they don't have insurance. I wonder if any of the doctors in the e.r. even new that this was going on when it happened, if I had to guess I would say no. Mabey it will come out later.
Mike Moore: I am from Flint, Mi., born and raised, I do not live there anymore because I want my children to have a chance in life. I do not, do not like Mike Moore at all, here is my reason: He only tells one side of the story. "Roger and Me", the documentary that launched his career was about how GM had sent Flint into an economic depression by pulling a shitload of their work out of the city, this was true. But ( there is always a but) he left out the part where the UAW has done nothing but suck GM dry for many, many years. Most of the employees at the shops in Flint were/are overpaid and under worked. The only thing the Unions do any more is protect the bad employees. Ask yourself this, if you owned a business and you couldn't fire an employee who came to work drunk, or better yet how about if they came to work sober and then got drunk at work because you could buy any intoxicant you wanted at work, leagal or illegal all because of the UAW, wouldn't you want to close up shop and leave? There was a time in history when Unions were needed, that time has pased, all the happens now is the high up union officials fatten their pockets with the workers money, they are just as much to blame as GM for why most of the shops closed and opened up somewhere else.
Canuck, you should take a page out of Charlie's book in terms of his stlye of debate. He argues about most of what I say, but is respectful about it!
Charlie, I'm well edcuated and don't think I need to read any more books. I just don't agree that food, shelter, water, healthcare, etc., are human rights. There are MANY starving, homeless people in the industrialized world and it's accepted. I can only conclude then that the industrialized world has concluded that food and shelter ARE NOT human rights. The problem is far too pervasive to chalk it up to inefficienceis in the system. The only right I believe in is the right to be here. The rest is up to you and yours. Cleaning the toilets, etc.? Do it for a company that pays for health insurance OR save up some $$$ and move to another country that will apparently treat you better. Make choices instead of playing victim.
I'm gratified to know that someone like yourself can point me in the right direction, as to how to have have a debate and be "respectful".
While I'm fully aware of my abrasive and somewhat "colourful" style and how it may be perceived AND being quite ready to admit it (substance nowithstanding, which has been solid), lets take a trip down memory lane, you and I, shall we? And go over some "CNN Throbstick Moments In The Game", ok?:
"I'm just waiting for Canuck1963 to spout some of his bs about this clip. I guarantee he won't be able to help himself - the king of armchair justice, but the kitten of real life." (I hadn't even posted ANYTHING yet at this point!)
"See comment earlier cafuck. I precited that your ignorant ass, big nose couldn't stay out of this. Get a life, get a job and stop burdening the canadian system."
"Canuck, you are so boringly predicatable. I crystal balled your ignorant presence here at some point (see comment earlier in the thread). Stop burdening the canadian system and get a job emptying port-a-johns."
"Looks like the fat bitch did in fact visit McDonalds several times that same day and was definitely not refused service. Wouldn't she have had to make an appointment 13 months out at a hospital in Canada..."
"I am a registered nurse, don't fuck with me" = "I was too dumb to go to med school and am still bitter about it".
And those are just the more DELICATE ones.
Sure, I've laced my comments with profanity at times; sure, I've hurled my share of insults; sure, I've come off as being hot-headed.....BUT......
The one thing I NEVER indulged in was in anything resembling hypocrisy, i.e., doing these things, and then having the audicity to cry foul when others do it (regardless of any provocational justification).
The crux of my whole argument is that the U.S. health care system is no goddamn good. Costa Rica's is better. And while Canada's system is by no means perfect (#30 on the list...wow), it is simply BETTER (along with the systems the U.K., France, Australia, etc, have) than what the U.S. has, as far as looking after the health of its citizens goes. Period. So, what we have here can be summed up thusly: a minority of people (like yourself) say it's the only way to go, i.e., "pay-to-play"; and a majority of people (the W.H.O, the growing number of Americans domestically, the rest of the industrialized world), who say, "Uhhh, no. It's crap, based on a crappy philosophy, especially in light of the fact that the U.S. is an obscenely wealthy country."
And THIS....has been the main thrust of my argument all along, delivery notwithstanding.
True, some folks don't care for my debating "style", and I acknowledge that......but others don't care for hypocrisy either. Sometimes, that can be the worst offence of all.
Wow, all medical staff at that ER should be in jail. The drug companies of America own Washington DC and we all must suffer. Bush is so corrupt I can't understand how he was elected even once.
So I have a question, canuck. Why are you so concerned about this healthcare debate? It doesn't pertain to you. It is clear that you must be some sort of immortal, or at least unable to die. I mean, how can you die if you have no life?
But seriously, from a couple of your comments, it looks like you're pounding out your diatribes while you're at work. I am not surprised by this. I wouldn't expect a socialist to have any dedication to the people who are giving him his paycheck.
But, since I *do* have a life, I can't respond to EVERY thing you wrote, but I'll pick a couple of good ones.
All of the Canadian inventions on your CBC website (1, 2, 3, 11
ok - so it didn't like something I had typed. Here it is from the beginning:
So I have a question, canuck. Why are you so concerned about this healthcare debate? It doesn't pertain to you. It is clear that you must be some sort of immortal, or at least unable to die. I mean, how can you die if you have no life?
But seriously, from a couple of your comments, it looks like you're pounding out your diatribes while you're at work. I am not surprised by this. I wouldn't expect a socialist to have any dedication to the people who are giving him his paycheck.
But, since I *do* have a life, I can't respond to EVERY thing you wrote, but I'll pick a couple of good ones.
All of the Canadian inventions on your CBC website (1, 2, 3, 11 and 17) are good inventions. The world owes a debt of gratitude to Canada for these discoveries. But you know what's funny about your list? Every one of the inventions you list was created *before* your socialized medicine was inflicted on your people. Notice how many ground-breaking medical advances happened since the mid-1950's? None. That was the point I made to begin with. Your socialist medical system stifles R
ok -- one last try. If this doesn't work, then I give up.
So I have a question, canuck. Why are you so concerned about this healthcare debate? It doesn't pertain to you. It is clear that you must be some sort of immortal, or at least unable to die. I mean, how can you die if you have no life?
But seriously, from a couple of your comments, it looks like you're pounding out your diatribes while you're at work. I am not surprised by this. I wouldn't expect a socialist to have any dedication to the people who are giving him his paycheck.
But, since I *do* have a life, I can't respond to EVERY thing you wrote, but I'll pick a couple of good ones.
All of the Canadian inventions on your CBC website (1, 2, 3, 11 and 17) are good inventions. The world owes a debt of gratitude to Canada for these discoveries. But you know what's funny about your list? Every one of the inventions you list was created *before* your socialized medicine was inflicted on your people. Notice how many ground-breaking medical advances happened since the mid-1950's? None. That was the point I made to begin with. Your socialist medical system stifles R and D to the point that untold hundreds of cures for untold numbers of diseases have never been found because of your failed system. Your own argument proves the point that socialized medicine is a failure.
Another point that you seem to be stuck on is this WHO report about national finance of healthcare. Look back at the report. It includes some nebulous term of "fairness of financial contribution," and zero explanation of how they ranked any of the other columns. The very idea that you would put such retarded shit like this on the internet tells us all we need to know about you, which is that you are utterly incapable of independent thought and apparently, you believe anything you read on the internet. It never states how they rank the *quality* of the healthcare, it uses some unstated algorithm to rank how much money is paid by the government. It doesn't say which government pays for what, how it is spent or anything of the sort. If I sent you a weblink that shows that Canada is dead last, would you believe that? Perhaps you would. It's on the internet, and the internet must be true. News flash: the ranking list you posted is useless. This same thinking would show that Mexico does a better job of feeding its citizens than the US does, since Mexico has a gov't-mandated daily tortilla allotment.
As for your last post, about American healthcare being Un-American, I chewed on it. I spit it out. I don't eat shit. I'll leave that to you. How about this page from the very same site:
...which I find hilarious, considering your delusional rants about Fox News. btw -- there are more avowed leftists who contribute their opinions on Fox News than there are conservative contributors on all other national media combined. You like to bash Fox because you're not smart enough to handle hearing differing opinions.
But guess what -- I actually take your link seriously. Fortunately, we don't have to listen to the link, since it's filled with distortions. Serious distortions. And you would know that if you actually read the ONE SINGLE FUCKING PAGE that I gave you as a little homework assignment. So I will refer you to the link again:
This time, read chapter 4. It is barely more than four pages long. It is found on pp 22-27. You should be able to handle it. But I doubt you will. The facts in that chapter explain the distortions in your link from btcnews.com. But since you won't (or can't) read the four pages, I'll explain it to you this way: life expectancy, infant mortality rates and disease treatment in the US are on par with the rest of the world. Your article doesn't take into account the fact that we are a very diverse population. Read chapter 4 -- it's only four pages and unlike your links, there are references to back up every single statistic on there. It will show you that when you compare the Japanese in the US to Japanese in Japan, whites in the US to whites in Europe, Hispanics in the US to Hispanics in south and central America, there is no statistical difference. Except one. The quality of care. We beat them all. For example, cancer patients are always more likely to survive their disease in the US than they are in any other country. So the question is: do you want to be alive and pay for it in the US, or die with your wallet full in Canada?
But there's one final point I'd like to make for you: Google the name Kaneshakumar. There's only one on the whole internet. There was something you said about eating your skid-marked shorts if anyone had had the same experience in a Canadian hospital... well pony up. Wait, no, don't do that. You're already full of shit enough. But if that's not enough, how about this:
Dan Smith of Brampton, Ontario, was denied a double-lung transplant — his only hope for long-term survival — when his surgery was cancelled due to a shortage of intensive care unit (ICU) beds. The donated lungs — which had already arrived — were wasted although 30 other Ontarians were also waiting for lung transplants. -- from Vince Talotta, “The Sickness in Our Health System,” Toronto Star, February 6, 1999.
Kyle Martyn, a 5-year old boy taken to the emergency room with toxic shock, died from complications from having to wait three hours to see a doctor. The ER was backlogged because three-fourths of its beds were occupied with already-admitted patients awaiting transfer to acute-care beds. The acute-care beds were full of “bedblockers” — long-term care patients who had nowhere to go due to shortage of longterm care beds. -- from “The Boy Who Ran Out of Time,” Toronto Star, December 12, 1999.
Yeah -- we need to look to Canada for guidance on our health care system. I'll repeat the question: do you want to be alive and pay for it in the US or die with your wallet full in Canada?
Being a right-wing zealot, you completely missed my whole point. THE WHOLE POINT.
I never said ....repeat: NEVER SAID....that Canada's system was "perfect". The whole thrust of my argument was the the CURRENT universal health care system WE have (as well as every other industrialized nation in the West) is simply BETTER than the profit-driven system the U.S. has. It's that simple. As far as your examples go of what went wrong in our system, this is a clear illustration of what singularly separates you and I, in terms of the the mindsets most Canadians and Amercians have. Think about this: Yes, those examples are true; yes, it was tragic what happened to those people, and yes, the system ain't perfect (again, I never said it was). BUT....when you bring up those examples, my first reaction is "Damn. What can we do to ensure this never happenes again? And how can we make it better?" Also, when the W.H.O. ranks us at #30 on that health care list after reading their criteria, I again say to myself, "What can we do to fix this?" Now YOU, on the other hand, fall into that oblivious, curiously unique Amercian mentality of reacting to ANY criticism by saying it's "anti-American", or branding something that doesen't fit with your notions as "leftist", that points out potential flaws. The only reason you think the WHO report is "shit", is because it doesen't rate America as No.1 Meanwhile, the attached report is all there, including their criteria (which you kinda missed, or didn't even bother to read). Like, give it a fucking rest, ok? Waving the fuckin' flag and singing "My Home 'Tis Of Thee" doesen't fix the problem, awright? And yes, I DID read your little report out of Texas. It's a report that's sponsored by your insurance and HMO industries, and trust me: you've had enough cultural brainwashing as it is. You're giving more weight to a report outta Texas, than an independent U.N. study?? (You know, the one you called "leftist"). Okayyyyy, fine. If you read back on my other posts, you'll clearly see that I say the QUALITY of U.S. health care is top-notch. I'll happily recognize that. Again, it was never an issue. It's the GODDAMN ACCESSABILITY of that care that's my point. Maybe if you dropped that fucking limited, Mccarthy-isk mentality, you'd finally see this.
You're defending the farce known as Fox "News"? No comment.
Adjust the laws so it is illegal to have health insurance and illegal to turn away persons seeking medical help.
Then maybe these doctors and hospitals won't charge seriously fucking outrageous prices for stupid shit and will actually have to work for their pay. As it stands they have no incentive to give a damn.
I passed by this discussion a month ago and went through multiple efforts to join glumbert just to get a chance to comment. Way back up there someone said it was the lady's fault. Someone implied it was because she was fat. Someone else mentioned her lack of initiative in not taking her suffering self to another hospital. When I hear stuff like this, people rationalizing away the fundamental sympathy that I think humans naturally feel when they are directly exposed to terrible suffering and misfortune, I know I am in the land of religion. Only that kind of total brainwashing can make a decent person deny his own decent feelings in service of a mere idea. What is that religion in this case? Not the one we all are saddled with here in the US that currently emanates from Mr. Bush. No, it's the religion of capitalism--that great American institution. And this religion has come to us by way of that other great American institution, propaganda (advertising). For fifty years Americans have been told that CAPITALISM CAN DO NO EVIL BECAUSE THE SEARCH FOR PROFIT IS INHERENTLY VIRTUOUS. Our rulers told us that a million million times because they feared and violently hated socialism and communism and even mere liberalism after capitalism had been called into question by the Great Depression, and for a while things had looked decidedly dicey for their privileged selves. So congratulations folks. When you have been indoctrinated so long and hard that you can hear of a woman dying in a hospital while treatment is refused, and remain unruffled, you can truly know that you have the True Faith. Sleep well. You never have to think again.
Okay, let me tell you my tales of hospital woe to show you how fucked up our healthcare system is:
I first went to the hospital on Aug. 22. I had an extremely heavy period for the past 10 days, and I was becoming severly aneimic from it. They discover that it's my birth control causing this and they force me to stop it. I go to the hospital again on Sept. 3. This time I have my period for 30 days and I am getting sick to the point I am fainting. It takes me two hours to get in, during this time a woman with a twisted knee shows up and gets taken in within five minutes because she uses the golden phrase "I'll pay cash". It turns out I have a UTI as well, and (without even considering taking a urine culture) they give me 100 mg of Bactrim for five days. The infection doesn't get better, and thus I am in the hospital with pyleonephritis on Sept. 18. Turns out I am immune to Bactrim so it didn't work. I get treated and I do well. I go back to the ER on Oct. 18 after collapsing in pain (and I have a high pain tolerance). I have a three hour wait. I get taken in, and they find the Levaquin I was given a month ago failed. They start an IV drip of Levaquin, do a CT scan, and then send me home, even though I'm still feeling sick. I get a call four hours later from the Cheif of Medicine saying that there is an abnormality on my CT scan. They think my appendix burst. I go and drink my Barium Sulfate like a good little girl, and they do another CT scan. My results aren't good. My appendix is fine, but I burst an ovarian cyst the size of a grapefruit, and my abdominal cavity was filled with blood. Yet the doctor the day before tells me that everything's fine.
I also love how if you're a 19 year old sexually active female, it is automatically assumed that you must be pregnant, even when they'res no chance you're not. I once had a Grade 3 concussion (with vomiting, blurry vision, insomnia, headaces, etc. a month after) and the nurse was sure that my symptoms must be caused by pregnancy.
To be honest, North American health-care is in a pretty sad state compared to other developed countries, particularly those in Europe.
US system is supposedly superior to Canada's because of wait times. Canada's is supposedly superior to US's because of accessibility and cost. Politicians play each of us off each other so that they don't have to spend the money it would take to change the system. However we're both doing it wrong, and it could be so much better.
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