I also enjoyed this video. The collage of news clips really demonstrates what a train wreck the push towards the Iraq was.
However, the video makes no attempt to explain why Bush, Cheney etc. went to such outrageous lengths to convince themselves, congress and the American public that Iraq's weapons programs presented a "grave and gathering threat." If the video is to make its case that Bush, Cheney etc. should be impeached it ought to take a stand on why Bush, Cheney etc. lied about purpose of the war in Iraq.
You might want to check out a book by a military analyst named Gwynne Dyer, called Future:Tense. He gives a very credible explanation for exactly why the Bush administration and neo conservatives pursued the war in Iraq, which had more to do with establishing U.S. total dominance and sending a clear message to other nations that the US. cannot not be pushed around, and will be the tough kid on the block for a long time to come, rather than anything to do with concern about oil, water, territory, WMD, or of course about poor Iraqis suffering from human rights abuses. They have completely hijacked international law in doing so. They want you to believe that there is a terrorist plotting against you right now - it is the same fear that gave their type power during the Cold War. The blatant power grab and eroding of civil rights of Americans on U.S. soil is maybe the scariest part of what Bush has done.
Yes, no terrorist activity on U.S. soil for six whole years. But the U.S. has now royally pissed off a huge percentage of the world population in a way that is not going to abate for generations. The Iraq war is the single best recruiting effort Al Quaeda could ever wish for. The last thing Bin Laden wants is for the U.S. to get out of Iraq - watch, as soon as there is any real talk of them leaving, or any election of a softer president that wants them to leave, they will lob some small attack at the U.S. to keep that fear level going, and to ensure that the U.S. continues to keep their recruiting effort alive by persisting in a war Al Queada can easily spin as being against Islam.
1953-- U.S. overthrows Prime Minister Mossadeq of Iran Installs Shah as Dictator
1954-- U.S. overthrows democratically elected President Arbenz of Guatemala 200,000 civilians killed
1963-- U.S. backs assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem
1963 to 1975-- American led military kills 4 million people in Southeast Asia
9-11-1973-- U.S. stages coup in Chile' Democratically elected Salvador Allende assassinated and Dictator Augusto Pinochet installed 5,000 Chileans murdered
1977-- U.S. backs military rulers of El Salvador 70,000 Salvadorians and 4 American nuns killed
1980-- U.S. trains Osama bin Laden and fellow terrorists to kill Soviets CIA gives them $3 billion dollars in funding
1981-- Reagan administration trains and funds "Contras" in Nicaragua 30,000 Nicaraguans die
1982-- U.S. provides billions in "aid" to Saddam Hussein for weapons to fight Iran
1983-- White House secretly gives Iran weapons to fight Iraq
I love the cut and paste nature of this video to give the impression that we were lied to. There is a difference in being wrong and lying. There is a difference in removing from context the information to bolster an opinion and taking things in toto. It would be no effort to show the news reports (buried and surfaced) that go back 15 years showing Iraq's weapon's manufacturing and use. We have found remnants of weapons and chemicals that would leave one believing that the intent was there and the capability. I would like to remind everyone that the world was of one voice in its intel through 2002...Saddam has made and used WMD's. That is a helluva lie for the whole world to tell.
you sound pretty misinformed. it was not 'the whole world'. it was america, and, by proxy, the UK. america bullied other nations into supporting their move on iraq based on false intelligence. "you're either with us or against us" ... the Bush gov't is arrogant and maniacal. they have crapped all over what was *once* a country that had some moral high ground. now the world looks at america as a bully and a hypocrit.
i'm not saying anyone is perfect, but you gotta look at the facts and see that bush/rumsfeld/cheney/wolfowitz/etc/etc/etc should be locked up...
The issue that started the war was not that Saddam had and used weapons at any point in time. The Issue put forward by the bush admin was that he had them in 2003 and could use them them at any time. The other issue the Bush admin put forward was about an al queda/Iraq link. This was a lie and they were not in Iraq until the US created a vacuum. They have these people recorded lying and you still have people like you saying "nuh uh" I guess we know who one of the 20 percenters is.
will someone please DEFINE WMD? This is so stupid. They lied... they used fear tactics to try to persuade people to support the war... the intelligent people did NOT support it (Most of western Europe) then they went over there and razed Iraq. I don't understand how anyone can actually support that administration anymore? They are completely screwing over the american public and the rest of the world... If you really do support them, please do more research and stop being so blind.
You can't argue that the quotes were contradictory. That means one or the other was a lie. That was more or less the aim of the video, which it succeeded in demonstrating.
diff between wrong and lying??? a matter of semantics... how many soldiers
died in Nam??? How many more lives should we sacrifice in this God-forsaken war - yes, it's a war, not a conflict...??? semantics/// both result in
death.,.. nixon didn't lie, either ... America has forgiven him.. I can not forgive
Pres. BUsh... both of them
Neil
You were saying that you are stupid and/or in denial, or maybe worse, cowards. Yes, the whole world. British and French intelligence from the mid90's did not suggest WMD production, but asserted it directly. Brainiac, why were the weapons inspectors there? Why were the spineless resolutions unanimously approved in the UN?
Streamlined - can only assume you are a troll. The British government (i.e. Bush puppet) justified the war on the basis of WMD intelligence which was later disowned by British intelligence. As for the resolutions passed by the spineless UN - well you're right, the UN is spineless but in the end they did NOT pass the resolution to go to war, and in invading Iraq the US and Coalition thus broke international law, and should be tried for it. Never gonna happen, of course, but lets not pretend the whole world supported the war when that clearly isn't true. I too was part of the anti-war demonstrations in the UK, and our government does not speak for its people.
neanderthal-none of what you say is true. The build up to the war was slow and deliberate with intel from around the world. The French never supported us but we used their intel to help bolster our claim that Iraq was central to a war on Islamic fanaticism. The fact that a world does not support us and sees us as hypocrits is part of doing business. The "world" has always been jealous of certain parts of what it means to be American that we have never really been liked...this is just the current popular reason to be pissy towards us. Read Stephen F. Hayes...review the lead up to the war. WMDs were a small part, at first, of the argument to engage Iraq.
You know what lead up to the war??? It was that fact the SR couldnt get the job done he stopped half way he didnt go in and get saddam like the original intention was he just beat him back some. Then along comes JR Daddy uses brother to fix the books to get him in and whats almost the first thing he does outside of taking a vacation he goes to war on intellegence that was not clear. He did not follow the advice of most of the Military advisors instead those who said no were forced into retirement so the yes people could do what ever Bush wanted. This has happened time and time again. I live in America and I am ashamed of it at this current point because of the pathetic nature that we live in. As far as I am concerned about 9/11 i could honestly give 2 shits I live about 4 hours from New York and despise the entire city, its a trash filled wasteland of nothingness we have men and women dying based on a lie. How would you feel if you went out and murdered an entire family because somone told you they raped your sister repeatedly and then your sister shows up and says no I was just being banged by my just out of jail new york convict. I think you would be a little pissed. So in closing. IMPEACH BUSH and put his entire staff behind bars he loves new york so much send him to Rikers and see how much he loves it then.
sellout...move. America is ashamed of you. Tough talk from ignorant lips sounds a lot like what happened in the 90s while Al Qaeda was building itself up for 9-11. None of what you say happened except in your small mind.
I wish you the best, however, because we can all change. (Nice touch with the heartless reference to NYC and 9-11...your mom would be proud.)
streamlined. Please do the following: -- learn other languages besides english so you can understand what other people in the world are saying -- read foreign newspapers -- travel around the world a bit, interact with citizens from other countries -- stop watching t.v.
Its a great video, But having people laughing at George Bush joking whilest showing the dead soldier in his coffin or the grieving relatives was wrong.
The people laughing were all press corps (it was a Washington news press dinner). The laughers were all journalists and media--in other words, people who should have known better, because the evidence was already out there, that Bush and his Gangster administration were lying through their teeth.
That montage makes the point that Bush and many in the media were laughing and completely uncaring, absolutely sociopathic, that men and women were dying over in Iraq over something he and they knew were lies.
Kill your television.
Question your media.
Impeach the Bush Administration.
Send them to jail.
streamlined...must be hard to breathe with your head right up your ass..read the the "terror conspiracy by jim marrs" before you sound any more idiotic..then tell us what you think of your leaders...fool...join the real world
Aliens among us...Jim Marr's has amazing credibility. Take the aluminum foil off your head. The world is not governed by conspiracies...or, is it. Right now I can see you at your computer...in your mom's basement...listning to Coldplay...and wiping off your keyboard. Yes, the real world: where aliens (that only Jim Marrs knows of) conspire with George Bush and Halliburton to control our minds through rising oil prices. What on earth was I thinking? Have you been listening to Art Bell?
worldcitizen-Iraq/al Qaeda was a connection. Harboring known terrorists in Iraq is well documented. (See Stephen F. Hayes) There was no operational link to 9-11 and no one ever made the claim. The Bush Admin did not put for the notion of Iraq having WMDs---the world did! What were those UN Inspectors doing? Clinton-Gore '98 both strongly endorsed regime chnge in Iraq because they had WMDs, not because we felt they had them. Please put all of the history in context and stop cherrypicking what you want to believe. It is a complex ordeal...possibly too complex for you.
Know what? For whatever it's worth, I'm gonna respond to your post by giving you some insight here, and it may come as a shock:
Know what I get all verbose and opinionated re: matters inside the U.S.? Well, it's because of....envy. Yes. You heard correctly. Envy. I am envious that a nation was founded on the principles of such as your Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Congress, etc. These are good things. SOUND things. It set out an ideal way to build a great Republic; one that is not ruled solely by military clout, but principles of fairness, decency and a legitimate voice for the average citizen. These are just some of the many things, even as a kid, I always admired about your country. And it is precisely because of these ideals I am envious. BUT.....somehow, that's all changed now. As I've said many times, in other threads, the entity that was founded THEN....is NOT the same entity that exists NOW. I have come to see a once-proud, respected nation be hijacked by a corrupt few; a few who would lie to, cheat or betray that Republic based on their own short-sighted stupidity and/or greed; Thomas Jefferson once shot a man in the head, on the White House lawn, for treason; why anyone hasn't dragged this current sonofabitch out of that ivory tower and given him a taste of that kind of justice, is beyond me. And his Vice-President is probably the biggest snake of all. To what point do the Amercian people have to pushed, Steamlined? Huh? How much? When is enough......enough? When are they simply going to snap, and say "Oh wow. Fuck this guy. Fuck his gang. We're taking back the this nation from these lying, murdering, treasonous cocksuckers!" When will this happen, Steamlined? Please don't drag other nations into this; they ALL (except Tony Blair) told the President "Don't fucking do it." Period. They SAID THAT. The U.N. inpectors were in Iraq actually doing there jobs. Period. The U.S. government made accusations, so the U.N. went in to investigate these allegations. Simple. And when it looked like they were coming up with nothing, Bush Jr. said, "Get out....'cuz I'm goin' in." Meanwhile, Osama is still running around, getting a suntan in the Bora Bora region. Add to all of this Cheneys assertion that he's his OWN branch of government, and can tell Congress to get lost; illegal wiretapping; firing federal lawyers; the fiasco response to Hurrican Katrina, and on and on and pathetically on. Streamlined....here's a shocker for you: the President is the Commander-in-Chief, right? Okay. BUT...he's the C-in-C of all personnel in the U.S. MILITARY....NOT the civilian population. So what exactly is his role? Simple: CONGRESS sets policy...the President, being C-in-C with the military at his disposal....CARRIES IT OUT, utilizing said military. That's it. That's all. This is why the Founding Fathers specifically mandated Congress with being the sole authority to declare war. However, what you have now is the complete reverse: the President, acting much like a fucking two-bit despot, starts vetoing Congress's bills and basically says to them "Fuck you; I'm the Commander-Guy!"
I ask you again, Steamlined....when is enough....enough?
This Glumbert clip actually didn't make me upset or nuts.
It made me sad to think that there are STILL sensible Americans out there...who just don't care. Because if they did...
I'd be seeing a certain someone standing in a prisoners dock in D.C. right now, stuttering and gulping their way through some sort of goddamn, half-assed explanation, as to why over 3,600 of America's best, brightest treasures won't be coming home.
And by the way, Streamlined, further to my above rant, you can be more than welcome to explain why former White House Counsel Harriet Miers defied a Congressional subpoena last week and Congress is considering charging her with contempt of Congress. If charged with Inherent Contempt, Miers would be arrested by the Sergeant-At-Arms, frog marched directly to Congress and tried on the spot.
Kinda like what a certain "Commander-Guy" should (maybe will?) be facing in his future, huh?
Canuck...wow, where to begin. You are so wrong on so many levels. I will try to make this clear and monosyllabic (one-syllable words).
The world did not say don't go to war...in fact w received enormous support, just not from France and Germany. How conveniently you forget. (BTW, I said Iraq had nothing to with 9-11 in the above piece, illiterate prig.) No war is perfect. Neither is your memory. The reason that there will not be an "enough's-enough" moment is because most people in USA don't think like you wackos. They lived itfrom 9-11 on and may not be too happy about our current place in Iraq but they have noticed that we hven't been attacked and that we have foiled a few plots. They have a media that gives air to people like you, who have nothing in their hearts or minds but bile and ignaorance and yet they remain sensible. They have a democratic party that is listening to brainless fruits like you believing that you represent an electing majority and they remain sensible. No one is listening to your inane banter, save me (can't believe I am down here talkng to a spoiled little child whose vocabulary is stunted by his inability to articulate without mindless swearing.)
Whn Canada is attacked, God forbid, your ignornce and cowardice will be replaced by a brain and a backbone. I imagine your ability to critically analyze the present through the prism of history will allow you to come to more rational conclusions. I hope it does not take an attack to get to that place. The last 300 years of warfare have had people like you...deniers that a particular war is necessary...impugning anyone who disagrees...your thinking and lack of action kill people.
The UN Insp's were not doing their jobs. How many resolutions does it take? Theinspectors found all sorts of dismantled machinery and chemical antecedents that constantly fed the notion that Saddam (who used chem weapos before) was wanting more. His own scientists talked of his nuclear ambitions and his steps to manufacture. You cannot be this stupid.
Well, maybe you can...you brought up a lot of other things that show your stupidity. Katrina, wiretapping...you sure are smart being educated by the state.
I asked ya for a reasonable reasonable response...and you got nasty, and only regurgitated the shit that Fox News and the RNC have been feeding you. Okay fine. Don't address anything I've said with some FACTS. And yes, wiseguy, Canada WAS attacked in our history...by the UNITED STATES. 1812. Your folks burned Toronto to the ground after your forces raped, pillaged and looted the joint, and we burned down the White House in retaliation (Dolly Madison, the First Lady, barely got the fuck out in time, and our boys managed to even sit down in the dining room for a bit of supper, before they trashed the joint). See? Even back THEN, you were fucking around and picking fights, with ANOTHER Administration sticking their goddamn collective beaks were they don't belong.
World War II.
That was it. That was the last time you did anything good. So snap the fuck out of it, put away the fucking flag AND START REPAIRING WHAT THESE ASSHOLES HAVE WROUGHT! Eisenhower warned YOU about not letting the military-industrial complex taking over...and folks like YOU argue FOR IT.
Canuck-The issue with Ms. Myers will be left for the courts. That is why we have that system. I doubt, but I could b wrong, that they will charge her with contempt since the hearings are a farce. The gamble is to keep the Bush Admin (of which I am not a fan) on constant defense. The current dems are still fuming that they cannot get a corrupt charge to stick since they have to make stuff up to go forward.
If Bush is acting inappropriately, he should be punished and so should Ms Myers. This charade is hardly worth anyone's time.
This is liberal propaganda from hell. Wow I like how Liberals use eclipse tactics and footage of corners politicians to sway a pre-allegiance to a political agenda.
People don’t care that Iraq was a regime of rape and murder before the war. People don’t care that Saddam publicly announced $20,000 for the families of all suicide bombers that kill an American. People don’t care for the Iraq-Americans that rejoiced that we went over the pond. People don’t care that Iraq has its own people in suffering. What the American People care about if lowered Gas prices and cheaper IPODs.
I don’t care if Bush said that Saddam had Sharks with lasers on their heads. War in the Middle East was inevitable and better now then later. People are so worked up on Bush's lies that they are willing to give up what is important. "Who cares that Iran wants Israel dead, Al Qaeda mission is to convert Europe and America to Islam, Who care that terror is a justified by over half of Muslims in the United States. Who cares that a Terrorist aims to target Schools, Hospitals, Churches, Parades, Children and Civilians in the United States ...because Bush is a liar.
Stop the war and you will see the Liberal resolve. We will be there in IRAQ, IRAN now or later, whether Democratic or Republican President. Despite the Liberal stance of backing down and giving up … the United States will be back in Iraq if we leave. We saw what happened in Germany in Post WW1, We saw what can happen when we stayed in Japan, Korea, and Germany Post WW2.
Japan, Korea, and Germany are beautiful. Leave now and all you will have is the crater of revenge and hatred bred by the first power that bleeds with hatred for anything outside Islam to wage a determined dream to destroy the West.
An American Soldier has accepted the mission because they see the bigger picture. We are not fighting for Bush. We are fighting for our family and our way of life. We accepted the mission and support the mission because we see what Islamic extremist have in store for us. You all forgot what 9/11 felt like. You all forgot what 9/11 was about. You treat it like a car accident on a Friday night. Our fathers and mothers, sisters and brothers ... neighbors and lovers died in a hell that was designed to attack the unarmed citizens of America.
To be honest I rather send my fighting force of young men and women, who are trained and armed to fight and took an oath to defend the United States, then watching again the unarmed children and citizens’ burn while we watch helplessly. How many Americans need to die before the liberal realizes that the enemy will eventually find his way to your home.
he already found his way to my door on the 11 of september 2001 and fuck him. and if american justice finds its way anywhere it better start if the fucking whitehouse. you just saw with your own fucking eyes how thay lied then joked around about it and if you want to joke with them take it on down to the your nearest v.a hospital and laugh it up with the boys and girls in the burn wards or the newly arrived amputees dont worry there are thousands of them maybe some one will find that funny, dont you think . you fucking Nazi !!
Whatever the outcome. American Justice has found its way out whether it was through a liar or militaristic president. Like my father once said, "A ass-kicking from a pink ballerina is still an ass-kicking"
So what if Iraq had a regime of rape and murder?? Why is that YOUR problem?? If the Iraqis wanted out of it so bad, then it's THEIR job to get rid of the bastard. How is it the responsiblity of some 20-year-old from Kentucky to go and settle THEIR issues with THEIR dictator?? Like, what is it about "NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS" don't you get?? And please....don't give me this shit that they needed "help", or they would have wound up "dead"; I recall reading something about some 13 dilapidated colonies taking on a whole EMPIRE....and WINNING. So now what? It's YOUR job to go in there, and be...what? Some kind of John Wayne coming over the hill with the cavalry at the last minute??
And yet you're so quick to send young troops to die for this shit??
Oh man. If that's the case, then the last reason I'd have, is to wear the uniform for the likes of YOU.
Canuck is a coward! A craven one at that. You wouldn't put on a uniform to do jack. What you just said spells out your factual ignorance and spinelessness. MIND OUR OWN BUSINESS?! Coward! As the world gets raped, Canuck blogs his life away, safely, absorbing what the screen in front of him commands.
That is your problem you only care about yourself. Canadians never have to worry about war. your never expose to it. Canada is so proud to be a punchline of every joke. America is a superpower and with that the world expect them to take on a responsabilty that canandians will never understand.
To keep the war away from the homeland is a stretegy that every leader knows when it comes to winnning a war. Far to complicated for a nation that has a police force of soft hearted fat versions of santa claus.
Americans dont turn their backs on people and shrug it off like it isnt there. tyrany spreads like wildfire. You demonstrated that you dont have the honor, duty and the selfless service to intervene unless it directly effects you. you sir are selfish and in its definition ... evil. You could care less about the welfare of others.
Sending Armed American troops is alot better then unarmed civilians dying in the US. Looks like the jihad has a tougher target to kill then a 12 year old now. If the united states falls then canada falls not the other way around. The world can live without canada but not without the US.
So you can live without Canada and pretty well the rest of the world, huh? So, being as how we're your biggest oil supplier, if we suddenly turned off the taps...then you'd be okay with that? Right? Dumb fuck. You don't turn your backs on people, huh? Well, let's just ask the Vietnamese...or the the Koreans....or the Salvadorans...or the Grenadans....or modern-day Iraqis, who want you the fuck out NOW. Oh yeah. My fuckin' modern-day heroes. And if WE don't have the courage or duty to intervene unless WE'RE affected, can I ask you two questions, John Wayne?:
1. Why are Canadian troops fighting and dying in Afghanistan?
2. Why did it take you 3 years to take on Hitler, while Canada and the rest of the world were fighting and dying in that time against him? (Was it because you waited until YOU were directly affected, (i.e., Pearl Harbour?)
Shut the fuck up, you ignorant, ungrateful, arrogantly-blinded shithead.
1. We don’t get majority of our oil from Canada.
2. N. Viet beat us out of Vietnam after US degraded support and loss at the home front.
3. We never turned out backs on Koreans. Hence the fact they are the 3rd most powerful in Asia.
4. 92% of Iraqis dislike American presence and 85% of killed and captured fighters in Iraq is foreign born or has public allegiance outside of Iraq.
5. We didn’t go to war with Hitler in the start because people like you discouraged it and demanded the president not to go. Liberals voice was heard. Only after American lives were lost we pushed the deniers aside and went to war. See the pattern?
6. Liberals running a country has failed in the past and will continue to fail or we will be puppets and followers like the Canadians.
We don’t turn our backs on people and ironically the very person saying we turn our backs on people is coming from a guy who said he will not go to war unless he was directly affected. Ironically you also said it’s none of our business. And from a person who demands we leave Iraq. You sir are a coward and a liar.
oh and ... if not mistaken .. The only reason Canada went to war in WW2 is because um ... Canada was a member of the British Commonwealth in the start of the war and sided with the Brit at all cost. Plus Canada’s reason to war was to strengthen the relationship with Britain and the world ...not to save lives.
That's courtesy of your Det. of Energy. Suck it up.
2. You lucked out on Vietnam because you had NO BUSINESS GOING THERE, and people got sick of being lied to; your "support degraded" because the the American public couldn't support a war based on lies and bullshit. Simple as that;
3. The South Koreans want you OUT; that's why there are frequent anti-U.S. riots there;
4. Like you said, a majority of Iraqi's want you OUT, and they "dislike your presence"; shit, even a few days ago, the Iraqi Prime Minister HIMSELF said "Leave anytime you want; we can handle it"; it's THEIR country....so get the fuck out. Why are you arguing??
5. "Only after American lives were lost we pushed the deniers aside and went to war. See the pattern?" Yes, I see the pattern, and thank you for answering my question to your own nonsensical logic; you went into it AFTER your OWN interests were affected. Nicely put. Thank you. Like I said...my fuckin' heroes;
6. "Liberals running things will make the country fail", huh? You mean like Truman? FDR? Kennedy? That kind of "fail"? I guess it's better to let the right-wing zealots run things, right?
7. Canada unilaterally declared war on Germany on Sept. 3, 1939 because they invded Poland, asshole. That simple. Try at least reading or travelling a bit before you watch Bill Oreilly, numbnuts.
And the only reason I'm a "liar" to you, is because I'm attacking the whole mindset of the cultural brainwashing you've been fed all of your life.
Bottom line?
You live in a glass bubble; you probably can't even find Iraq on the map; and you don't even know the Articles of your own Constitution. So go back, get your G.E.D., and come back with a SOUND argument, and not simply a fluttering flag I feel like choking you with.
You can’t read can you? I just said we were beat out of Vietnam. Read.
1. We didn’t luck out on Vietnam and if you called that luck then you’re dumber then the shit your father smoked when he had you. No one lied to on why we went to Vietnam idiot. The mission was to stop the spread of communism. Public support degraded because they were tired of the war period coupled with the drug era it became a huge disadvantage to stay.
3. I am Korean and the South Koreans do not want us out and we even optioned to leave Seoul but were requested to stay. The protest is made by college students and less then 30% of the students in Korea even support the removal of US troops. Polls show that over 83% of Citizens in Korea over the age of 25 supports the US and surprisingly over 90% or 9/10 Adult South Korean admits that the peninsula is safer because the US has troops in Korea. Your information is ass backwards.
4. Iraqi’s dislike out presence because the mere fact that we are Americans. The Iraq prime Minister DID not say he wanted us to leave he stated for more time and patience from the US. He even states that in order to achieve the goals to secure Iraq he will need to work side by side with coalition. If you read more recent news his Aides said that the media misconstrued his comments and that he did not say that US can leave anytime they want. Al-Maliki even said he was misunderstood. Read more into the story before just looking at one lines on Yahoo search. Your not 12, I think at least.
5. We didn’t go to war because cowards like you demanded that we would not go. The president and the powers in the United states urged to wage war and used the Pearl Harbor to bolster the cause to wage war, idiot. People like you only see things black and white and too dumb to do anything unless you get a cause. That’s why you wont do shit unless people die. If no one dies then it’s a happy Canadian world to you.
6. Nice to bring the old democrat when they are nothing like the new. The democratic liberal in the past were not push-over cry babies that live up to their passive appease policy. Even FDR stated that “... if (we) enact a policy of appeasement (we) will surely fail” Those were the day when liberals were called liberals for a reason. What the hell is a Canadian doing talking about politics when the only hero you guys got is not even Canadian.
7. Canada unilaterally declared war on Germany because Mackenzie already told Germany that they would support the UK no matter what. The intention of the Canadians was to bolster the relation with the UK at all cost. Don’t misconstrue the reason the UK went to war with the reason your country went to war. Get off the coat-tails of that great nation and take responsibility of your own history. You don’t see the US playing off Britain. Get over it, “Chap”.
Brainwashing? Ironic coming from a Canadian. You have been so white-washed that no nation actually takes you seriously well at least militaristically. When people have their eyes on the US they know the easiest way into the US is by taking the Canadians out. There is a reason the world calls you the sister country to the US. Because you guys wear the panties in this political and economical relationship. And yes I am calling you a liar and a coward. You have no values and you’re quick to turn coat.
And your last rant? I find it unique, that a member of a visible minority can, in turn, become just as quick to brand whole nations and peoples, as well buy into the BRAINWASHING of a "melting pot" belief.
cunuck your an idiot. Your just as bad with history as the japanese. the differance is at least the japanese are doing it on purpose. What is your reason? Please dont say "Im a canadian, eh"
Ummmmm...no offence....but....seeing as how Canada was at war with Japan a full three years before they jumped in....didn't WE kinda help the poor Koreans out, while the Japanese were turning you all into subservient housepets?
Canuck...1812?! Would you like reparations? Feelings still hurt, eh? That's not too far after our founding, of which you are so envious.
I did not get nasty. I pointed to what appears obvious in your juvenile tirades. I think we aought o go one point at a time...you ask me question, I'll answer...then ask you one. Otherwise, we get no where in your re-education process.
Don't need reparations; we voluntarily gave back Michigan, and won it with the signing of the Treaty of Ghent in 1815. Chalk that one up, next to Vietnam.
Not exactly voluntary, Canuck. Everytime you mention Vietnam you betray your own ignorance. Please read the lead up to Vietnam and the tragedy of our leaving. The civilian killings doubled when we left. The American liberal-left has much to answer for...including your miseducation.
Canuck-Scaife paper disagrees with Bush! Alert the presses...NY Times...the Tribune! APB:There is dissention in conservative circles over the war. The Pittsburgh paper has hardly been conservative even if Mellon-Scaife is kinda one. Before making a fool of yourself, do some background...and critical thinking.
Got to go Steamlined, but I accept your offer of "one question at a time", I'll be back later, but I'll open up first:
Why did your political elite tell so many lies (i.e. WMD's, implied an Al-Queada link with 9/11, said they KNEW where the WMD's were, ALL courtesy of the clip above)? And please....don't give me any shit about this clip being "spliced" or "biased". It's as plain as the nose on your face AND THEY ARE ACTUALLY SAYING THE THINGS THEY'RE SAYING, in proper context, so stick to a solid argument; that's all I ask.
And the fact that you leave open a little leeway by saying "Bush could be a liar", and then dismissing it...is completely and totally insane. You're an idiot.
Canuck-Beginning right after Gulf War 1, Iraq agreed to weapons inspectors coming in and inspecting. From the get-go the inspectors limited view elicited mixed information. For the next 11 years, Saddam allowed and then disallowed weapons inspectors in. He also claimed various things about his weapons capabilities that lined up with some of what the inspectors found. However, after 13 (I think) resolutions from the UN and useless sanctions, saddam's implied threats of weapons development and use seemed a bit more awful when we were hit on 9-11. If he had them in the capacity he claimed (and world intel claimed)and they were developed, they could be sold to terrorists who have neither country or people to whom they are uniformed. After a year in afghan. and another laughed-at UN resolution, GWB took steps that many wanted but were loathe to take. Read my lips: THERE WERE NO LIES that lead up to the war. Was some of the intel wrong, yes by certain degrees. But that is not lying. It is a normal part of surveillance. (Many of the weapons are believed to be buried and dismantled since parts have been found. Chemical antecedents have been found. Iraqi nuclear scientists have made claims about saddam's ambitions and how far he was from them.)
The implication of your question is erroneous. I would ask you the same question. However, I will not put the stips on your answer. The clip above is edited to arrive at a desired outcome. A few of the questions for Rumsfeld were specific questions. The clipped answers were made to seem generalized.
Al-Qaeda is the link to 9-11. I assume you meant to ask a bout Al-Qaeda's link to Saddam. No one from the Administration has ever suggested that there was an operational link between the two. However, there is a strong link to intrasupport of the two...terror camps in Iraq, safe harbor to an injured Moussaoui in Baghdad.
The strategy is fairly obvious: keep the terrorists off our soil. 6 years and counting.
Guys, it's not about politics! And I'm talking about the simple question: Did the President and his assets lie, or did they tell the truth? No matter what party, no matter if republican or democrat. The great government of one of the most powerful countries in the world, who could find a needle in a haystack from outter space if they wanted to, did not find weapons of mass destruction. So, fact, at this point, is, it was a lie. Nothing more to debate.
Besides: Anyone ever thought about the fact that Bush ownes a part of the company where most of the weapons used in the latest gulf war were bought?
I know this is an emotional issue. But nothing good can come from a discussion based on emotions.
And I'm not even American. Where I come from, the media is quite impartial. And stilll, from the information I got here, the war on Iraq was a crime. (no dissrespect against the soldiers who gave their lives, and their families)
Why is the war in Iraq a crime? How is getting Saddam and his Sons a crime? You are forgetting that when the UN sent in inspectors into Iraq, Saddam kicked them out and shut them out. Saddam sent just as much mixed ass messaged to the World about his intentions and munitions. The Administration based their information on bad Intel that unfortunately reinforced by Saddams erratic and determined motives to shut the very people that wanted to prove he has no WMD. You can crop and splice all the footage but the point is the policy and the technicality to start the war may be politically wrong but militaristically and realistically it was justified. It was justified to kill Saddam and his Sons and take Iraq from his control. Saddam wasn’t an angel and he publicly supported anyone to kill Americans. ei: $20,000 for the families of whoever dies killing an American.
If Bush is a liar then so be it. Saddam and Bush could be both liars but Bush didnt rape and murder families. bush didnt hang and torture people for no reason. Bush didnt go and force people into the sex market.
this emphase reinforces a long time problem that can mirror the situation. A man rapes a girl and is captured on camera. Police arrest and beat him in the process. Since his rights has been violated the case gets dropped and is protected from further pursecutions. Man walks. Saddam shouldnt walk because Bush is a liar. Like i said before. Even if bush said Saddam has Sharks with lasers on their heads i will still take the war to saddam.
Saddam Hussein is a whole world away; he engages in this and that with his own people; he murders them; he oppresses them, and then...what? You think it's YOUR duty to go there like gangbusters, and take him out? And not the Iraqi's job? Oh fuck off, simpleton. You're forgetting one thing: THAT'S NOT THE REASON YOUR PRESIDENT GAVE FOR GOING THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! NOT THE REASON AT ALL!!
You take out a guy who was NO THREAT to you....but you let a genocide happen in Rwanda? In Darfur?? And you "never turn your backs on people"???
And the fact that you leave open a little leeway by saying "Bush could be a liar", and then dismissing it...is completely and totally insane. You're an idiot.
Saddam does hold a threat to US interest. AND yes it is our responsibility to stop Saddam from killing and ethnically killing his own people. Idiot, don’t think because your country is selfish in all its endeavors means the US is as well. When we are selfish we help ourselves but at least we help those while doing it. And only you would brush off a whole situation because of politics. Politicians start wars so that Soldiers can fight them. The situation never changed despite what bush said. Who gives a fuck for WMD? What does a Canadian care? You wouldn’t stop him because you don’t care. Values are your issues. You have the indifference of man and that is what guides your ass.
Canuck-Saddam was an overall threat to the middle east and even the world. His claims of his own weaponry suggest that. We did not want his weapons to end up in the hard-to-track hands of terrorists. And YES, Bush did cite humanitarian reasons for going to Iraq...your ears are deafened by bile. I do agree however that we should do something in Darfur...like Canada! Hypocrit
"Saddam was a threat to the middle east and even the world"? you're talking about the same Saddam, whos' military was defeated in a matter of weeks? Or was he secretly working together with some aliens on Weapons of Supermassdestruction? Do you even listen to yourself when you speak? (in this case: do you even read what you write?)
canuck is right. If the Bush administration had said "we want to remove Saddam from office because he's mistreating his people", how many Americans would have agreed to this war? And as canuck already pointed out: there are lots of other countries where the citizens are mistreated, like north korea or china (tibet) for instance. And apparently there's no need to attack those countries. Maybe because they're too strong or there's no oil or maybe because they don't have a reason there either. Let's face it, whoever is responsible for 9/11 (watch lose change btw) the Bush administration used this catastrophe to their advantage. If this was my president, I would not trust, not support and certainly not VOTE FOR HIM THE SECOND TIME!!! I would organize demonstrations, do whatever I can do to get him out of office. Remember the time before 9/11? The world was a lot peacefuller, and the people had a lot less anxieties, and were a lot less afraid. And not only in the USA. The whole world was/is freaking out just because Bush is a f***ing a**hole.
You have to understand you cant wage war with N.Korea. They hold more cards to truely devistate the enviroment. Listen to what you are saying. Wage war with China and N.Korea? Your asking for WW3. China is allied with N.Korea. Japan and S Korea is allied with the US and each other. China will take the oppurtunity to engage Tiawan which is allied to the US and allied to Britian. Britian voed to support them and will engage bringing in Europe. china has a protection treaty with Paki and paki will take the oppertunity to engage India which is a long time enemy.
The US tried diplomacy and Saddam shut everyone not just the US down. When diplomacy fails there is no other option to either shutup and not get the job done of militarly/econimical.
does the Voice of reason say because the justification of war negates the actions of saddam and his Sons? Do you watch a man rape a child and not interfer because of politics?
well you made your argument. Thats why canada or You dont make political decision because ... well we would naturally be wiped off the world. If it wasnt for the Human watchdog org i think you would of died off long time ago.
See all the angry Americans... someone's going to write their doctoral thesis on this kind of dialog. I still like the clip-together because the producer has been paying attention to some important details in this point of history. We really need to focus our attention on the climate change issue, and come together right now.
Canuck, give us all an f'in break. You don't live in the U.S., never have, never will, and yet you continue to act as an authority on how americans live, should live,could live, and should be governed. You do this based on the odd conversation you have with an american while sipping a beer in the west indies and the reading that you've done (reliability unknown).
The only thing this video is for sure is an example of how facts taken out of context can be used to make any argument. Kind of like you do on a lot of these threads. You have a pre-disposed position and search for facts to back it up. It's plain and utter wrong and you know it.
throbstick, no one least of all canuck would give a shit about how you yanks lived. You could all stay in a trailer with a with a remote control fused to your left hand and your penises crusted into your right 24/7 if you wanted to for all anyone else cared.
But your trigger-happy carelessness has repercussions - the only evidence you see being a scratchy, black and white image of a non-discipt building blown up in a silent puff.
Do you really think the thousands of devastated families think "But it's for the greater good and I'm just glad it's the Americans"? America has enough of the worlds resources and anyone in the States who is poor and scared has noone outside their country to blame but their own government.
Bush should for once start focusing on problems at home and stop fucking with others.
I am an American, and I mostly agree with canuck1963. His comments are articulate, and well meaning. It is useless to argue with extremists (Religious or political), because they are angered by truth, and then lash out.
I lived through quite a number of US inspired wars now, and I know that these wars are inspired more by profit, than almost any other motive.
If the individuals above believe that invading Iraq can be justified by stating that the country was being run by a unstable individual, and that the country had WMD's, and that there was a chance that they could use these weapons to attack another nation. Then how does the rest of the world see the US now?
How would the conservatives above feel if some superpower stated that they did not like the US and they wanted to put a stop to US aggression before we went too far? They invade, they bomb, etc. Would they still be supporting their philosophy of preemption if they were on the receiving end of it?
um no i dont think your an american. a citizen maybe but if you agree with canuck then ... well then start truckin north because the retarded version of a Brit is waiting for you.
the aggrements on how we act and the weapons we hold are in agreements with all the nations. There is a reason we cant let Nkorea have nukes and Iran to have them as well. What would happen when superpowers dont do anything for anyone. Everyone superposed a implied responsibilty to any country that is deemed a superpower. US, UK, China, etc etc. The only reason China didnt come out for it's responsibilty because they have a policy of isolationism on that issue. They just now recently broke from that policy and engaging internationaly to help other countries including sending military/ecomical aid. When superpowers dont act then no one will. this implies to everyone that is considereda superpower not just the US.
herro - I derive from your response that Pentagon personnel decide who is a citizen and who is not, and the the Pentagon decides who is a Patriot and who is not. I guess the Pentagon will soon decide who lives and who dies, who is a citizen and who is a terrorist?
Thank you for letting me live in my country at your pleasure or not.
When will you take away the rest of my freedoms? Can I speak freely, or do I have to pass it through a government approved filter, so that you are never in discomfort with the statements of another citizen?
podman, I agree with you. If you look at many of the other vids/threads, however, you'll see that canuck looks and takes every opportuinty to slam the us. In fact, they tend to be the only vids he comments on! That's what i take issue with.
It comes down to oil, war profiteering, and proving to the world that we can take a country and do what we'd like and push everyone around. We have to show the rest of the world that we're in charge. But one thing was miscalculated....they thought Iraq was truly going to be a cake walk. Just like the first Gulf war and afghanistan, we would win without a sweat. They were wrong. now they are stuck knee deep in shit. But what's worse than all that combined is that the american people have been complicit in this. The fact that they voted for bush the second time around simply amazed me. i lost faith in the american people after that. They were seduced so easily. Before I used to think that if some truth were shown on tv, that people would respond and take to account. All one had to do was show the american people the truth and things would be ok. i no longer believe that. I think we as americans are like sheep, maybe even worse, we don't care. The american people deserve bush and it deserves what it gets. Lets all stop the bullshit and stop giving so much credit to all these asshole politicians and news media. The american people knew most of it was unsubstantiated assertions, yet they were willing to take a chance with bush. Its true that many americans protested but their voice was drowned out. The truth is that those who care about these issues are a minority. Lets lay the blame where it truly deserves to be.....the american people....I know its a cardinal sin to blame the american people for anything, but lets be honest and call it like it is!
I don't know how the U.S. looks from the "Outside", since lately I am only in the U.S. What I know of this country, is from a vastly different perspective from residents of the rest of the world. There is a distasteful arrogance that many Americans have, that they freely express to the rest of the planet, and indeed onto America itself.
In a comparative analysis the US looks most like Ancient Rome. And like them we are trying to shove our culture, political, and religious beliefs down their throats, at gunpoint if necessary. If America "Stays the course" in this philosophy we are doomed to extinction.
I don't know what canuck1963 stated in other posts about America. Perhaps, as Americans we should be able to take any critical view from the outside. After all how do we know we might be angering someone else if they don't get angry.
I agree Oil is a huge modifier in any issue. Natural resources have influenced the politics of everynation on every issue internationaly.
Not everyone voted for Bush but look at our alternative ... Kerry come on .. he is a documented traitor to the US with a pardon. He has no military intergerty and we really dont want a leader of our military who will potentially cower. Research Kerry and you see what the american people saw 1. Vote for Bush and get Bush again. 2. vote for Kerry and have a American traitor with a pardon in the worlds more powerful seat. 3. DO not vote and hope that they dont get Kerry in. not good choiices there. A good american got Bush in not because they like Bush.
so we agree Canuck that you would vote a man without values and was knowed to back stab his own troops. Then we both agree that we praise the fact that you only vote in canada. Idiot.
Darn, look at all these posts - make me puke bunch of liberal ass tree huggers! There isn't a government that will ever tell us the truth about anything no matter the political party - no matter the government! They should have dropped a dozen nukes on the middle east and then shot the one's they missed! Yea - Genocide - how I miss the good 'ole days.
The why the fuck aren't YOU, as a PATRIOTIC, LOYAL AMERICAN....doing anything about it? Maybe you should.....instead of branding other folks as "cowards" or (GASP!) "evil".
im doing more for my country then your family line will ever do for yours. Dont talk about what American patriotism is when you sir are from a country that has none.
Bullshit "The world was of one voice". The only people who believe that watch American mainstream media which was hijacked and continues to be so. If you were outside the US (anywhere else in the world) at the time you would have seen the massive anti-war marches and protests. We even caught glimpses of the small ones within the US where they were abused by their own scared little countrymen. I respect and admire any Yank who sees beyond the facade and speaks up about it. Fucking respect!
reddwarf-not too bright are ya? War protesters? Now there is a group of people whose judgment is sound. (I couldn't protest--I was at work.) Your small mind is selectively remembering history...the long build up to the war, the world leaders pledging support (moral, financial and personnel). It wasn't unanimous but it was pretty sizeable. I don't watch American mainstream media...I tossed my tv years ago. You should do the same. The world's media is just as biased and you are uncritically choosing to believe what is funneled into your brain. Once you mov out of your parent's house you will see there is more to this world.
The anti-war protest isnt as big as you think. Vietnam now there is a movemtn but right now it's just typical protests. I live in DC so i see what is on the steps and it isnt vietnam.
And on which end of Pennsylvania Ave. do YOU live on? I've been there. Many times. Your answer will speak volumes. Becaue the east-side is VASTLY different than the west-side. So.....which one?
are you stupid? i live in Arlington and i work in DC. I think ive been to DC more then you have. I drive thru constitution and Independace all the time and the Anti-war is not as strong as you passionatly wished it was ... unless majority of the protestors are canadians and protesting in South side DC.
Pentagon is in Arlington property but listed to be in DC. DCA is in Arlington property but listed as DC.
You can only win on technicality because you cant win any other way. Your just a broken as out justice system. "Dur he didnt kill that man, because the police didnt have the right to search his house" ..eh
Streamlined. If you don't watch the tele at least read a book. The support wasn't sizable, it was just made to seem that way and you believed it. 40 odd countries as the "willing"? Many of which were tiny pacific nations who don't even have a military but were "willing" to sign anything in return for financial support. But then 40"willing" countries sounds better than a few bullied countries. Far from unanimous. Yes, I am choosing what I believe and unlike you I don't have a funnel attached to my brain. It's a sieve which allows me to catch the nuggets of truth which are apparently rattling around in your noggin without anything to attach themselves to. Sorry, I just resorted to your condecending mode of communication of belittling someone instead of peaceful debate.
Once again the voice of reason seems absent from the mind of the war monger.
why do you keep saying bullied? Speaking of media minuplation. "US bullies UK into support" come on give me a break. If you think about it how many nations were at war in WW2 and of those nations which actuially mattered? Who cares that Brazil went to war with Germany.
Of those 40 countries that supported the invasion we only cared about a few.
are you borderline retarded? Why do you always read between the lines and miscontrue statements and praise eclipses and minipulate the facts? That is not how you win arguments. Your tatic is to win support at the cost of honesty.
Reddwarf-proving the light is dim. Bullied support? I love how you treat your assumptions as fact to prove your position. I probably shouldn't have condescended, but after reading this, I feel better about it.
Plus, peaceful is not how I would describe my feelings for people wh would undermine our war effort. If you have ever been on a team, you know what dissent can do to morale and then to performance. In this case is costs lots of lives...much more than if we had the politica will to win. When the bombs started falling our support was pretty strong. As time wore on, the dems saw opportunity to begin the undermining. People like you are useful idiots in this process.
Once again you resort to name calling. If you had a rock you'd probably throw it. If you had a bomb you'd probably blow it up. Remind you of anyone, extremist? Don't forget, if you're willing to drop bombs on anyone you're either directly under threat, which you're not, or your views are extreme enough to kill for.
I just wonder why in America can an idiot like GW Bush become President, and then STILL get re-elected when all evidence show he is AN IDIOT?
Do you know that he is a liablity to USA? With him in the White House, more and more people outside USA hate the USA! Not because they hate American's 'way of life ' or 'freedom' etc, but because with GW Bush in the White House, the policy of interventionism in OTHER COUNTRIES would continue!
EXAMPLE: Ask yourself if you like it if someone from (for example) Uganda, or Indonesia or China, or Russia, sending troops into USA to cleanse USA of nuclear weapons? You like someone coming into your house and turning over all furniture and making a big mess, and also molesting your mother wife and daughter while at it? THINK ABOUT IT!!!! Because that's waht YOUR GOVERNMENT IS DOING!
People outside generally don't hate you. But they hate the GOVERNMENT!
AMERICANS, DO SOMETHING FOR GOD'S SAKE! get the current idiot OUT of the White House!
thisnameused is correct! You people had better "WAKE UP" before it's too late. Unfortunately, the political correctness has run amuck way too long and the United States is in danger of being NO MORE! Enjoy your freedom while you have it. I pitty the future of our children
I see that "herro" has adopted radio silence; good. Tough to argue with logic, when it's slapping you in the face with a bucket of cold water.
Ahhh, Throbstick: My old deaf, dumb and prone-to-childish-games stalker; still spewing the ol' "he's anti-u.s.-and-anti-American" bullshit, huh? Well, I refer you to the very first post I made on this thread at to why I'm so impassioned about the U.S. as a whole. You're credibility has long since evaporated on these threads, so take my advice: go back to changing your name again. You're embarrassing yourself by NOT READING PROPERLY.
Podman: You captured it beautifully when you used the term "well meaning"; I save my venom and bluster for those who come at me with patently stupid arguments/reasoning, whilst simply draped in a flag (whether said individuals are American, Canadian or British or whoever); this is the same kind of nationalistic fervor that blinded people to the rise of the National Socialist Party in Germany; the same kind of fervor that spawned the breeding ground in Stalins era after the Bolshevik Revolution; and sadly, it's the same blind, nationalistic fervor that has allowed President George W. Bush implement a catastrophic foreign policy, that's left thousands and thousands of people dead, American AND Iraqi.
Billboat: Nice to see ya again. Only two more months to hockey season. I'll buy the beer, you buy the pizza.
Now, on to Streamlined:
Good argument. On the surface, it kinda sounds sane.....but very, very, VERY incorrect. Here goes:
Osama Siblani (cute first name!) , publisher of "The Arab American" newspaper, says George W Bush told him in May 2000 that he is going to "take out" Iraq and Saddam Hussein (which is at least a little better than "We're gonna smoke'em out!!). In January 2004, Former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill tells "60 Minutes" that removing Saddam Hussein was topic "A" at the very first National Security meeting in January 2001. Richard Clarke, counterterror czar under Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton and Bush 43, writes in his book Against All Enemies: “Since the beginning of the administration, indeed well before, they had been pressing for a war with Iraq,” Immediately after 9/11, Clarke actually recalls Secretary Rummy pushing for retaliatory strikes against Iraq.
Holy shit! So, immediately following the 9/11 attacks — when there was ZERO evidence linking Saddam to al Qaeda – prominent right-wing nutjobs behind the inevitable march to war were arguing in favor of attacking Iraq. On September 16, 2001, Richard Perle went on CNN and explicitly friggin' linked Saddam Hussein to Osama bin Laden. Did you read what I just TYPED?? Like, holy fuck man. (kind of like in this video clip on Glumbert, showing Cheney doing the SAME THING!).
On September 20, 2001, "The Project for a New American Century think-tank" sent President Bush a letter urging him to respond to the attacks by retaliating against Iraq.
On September 11, 2001, Donald Rumsfeld ordered the military to draw up strike plans. His notes are quoted as saying: "Best info fast. Judge whether good enough hit S.H." – meaning Saddam Hussein – "at same time. Not only UBL" – the initials used to identify Osama bin Laden. Like, Rummy can't even SPELL this turds name right. Taken together, there is A LOT of documented evidence that the Bush administration had every intention of regime change in Iraq even before taking office. Once 9/11 happened — despite any evidence linking Saddam Hussein to the attacks — the same people who argued for years that Saddam had to go----after they felt that the bastard ceased to be a "useful asset" (and the same people who were now running the federal government) began using the attacks as a justification to carry out their bullshit agenda.
You see? This is NOT about there being "no lies because the Intelligence was wrong", rather, it was the intelligence being framed around the outright lies. It's fucking horrific that a government (ANY government) can be allowed to function this way. AT ALL. And as far "keeping the terrorists off our soil", I remind you that 9/11 happened without the current war in Iraq, plus the U.S. government actually OUTSOURCED the search for him to....Pakistan! Yup. ONE BILLION (that's a "B") DOLLARS to President Musharrif to find the prick who was behind those bloodthirsty attacks on 9/11; and to add further fucking insult to injury, Bush has not even held him ACCOUNTABLE for all that dough. Streamlined, do you know for how many years Saddam was an employee of Washington? There's Rummy, shaking hands with the bastard like they're buds (I've seen the picture; have you?). When Saddam started his fucked-up war with Iran (1980-1988), Washington simply adopted the philosophy that Saddam was now their "asset" against Iran, and will give him maps, weapons, intelligence on Iranian troop movements, etc. That is until, as I've said above, their "asset" stopped paying a return investment......and invaded Kuwait.
One dictatorship....invading ANOTHER dictatorship. And the prize in the middle? O-I-L.
And another question: Why are YOU telling selloutkat above to "sellout...move. America is ashamed of you"??? Huh?? Why should he/she MOVE?? Why? What happened to free speech? What happen to healthy debate? And who are YOU to say that a WHOLE nation should be ashamed of ANYONE?? Are one of these folks who also believes that "America was founded as a God-fearing nation"-myth?? I truly hope not. Indeed, I think it would be a crying shame, considering you DO know how to put togther a sentence pretty good (even if it is inaccurate).
I suggest you re-dedicate (or remind) yourself of the fundamental principles of the Constitution of the Republic, and not sound so...dictatorial.
wow how many feature articles are you going to post. Your posting articles that are designed to open discussions and not considered proverbial. I bet you think Michael Moore are considered ligitament documentaries too. Im surprised you didnt post them yet.
you are so swayed that you already closed your mind of anything. And i still dont know why you have so much passion for a foreign countries policies. Funny a American Liberal nutjob and you aint even american.
Having read your cut and pasted arguments, I can only come to the conclusion tat you ar too far gone in your mindset...only reading that which you agree and impugning that which does not fit into the box. I am well aware that a lead up to any war is frought with disagreements, accusations of mischief and lies, accusations of dishonor, etc. I am also not 100% on board with every inch of every aspect of this war that I do support as a whole. However, nothing, NOTHING above counters anything I said. You started a discussion of Bush-Cheney at 2000. The terrorists have been at war witht he west for 30 years. I started my argument in the early 90s and could have easily started earlier. Pressing for a war years before the start date does not lend credence to anything you say unless you frame it in the current "Bush lied-people died" box. Listen, I was on your side for some time. As things developed around the world and in my country, that side of thinking slowly diminished. The "for oil/profits" argument is so absurd that I do not know how to pursue it respectfully. If it is, where are the profits? When will the overtaking of fields begin? These things take time to assess and certain arguments, in the light of experience and history, begin to diminish. Your Vietnam arguments are jsut the kind I am referring: We were right to go in. It corresponded with a social upheaval in the States that lead to jaundiced and biased media coverage which then fueled dissent--not the other way around. We are seeing the same thing here. How many and how frequently are we hearing about the successes in Iraq? The stories are legion but you will almost never hear thm in the international or US press.
I recognize Saddam's relation to the US and to other countries long before he became our enemy. (In the 80's we did choose the lesser of 2 evils and at the time, Saddam was much the lesser vs. the Ayatollah). Did this have unintended consequences: you bet. Would we probably do it similarly again: yep. Your inability to view history through unbiased eyes makes you say the absurd things you say. Hitler, for example, had impressed the US government and press before WW2...so had Mussolini. Economic and political ties with one administration can go sour and leave a lot of clean up (and even enemies) for a future administration. Remember the love affair that the American left had (and still has) with Stalin? Mao? Things seem different in the light of history. A miscalculation of one generation may haveno bearing on the next's approach, attitude or actions. I know this history lesson falls on deaf ears because you actually brought up the war of 1812...totally missing my point about being attacked and the nature of terrorism.
We have helped Musharref because of th tenuous relationship we have had with Pakistan and India. Before you make absurb judgments as to why we don't just go in and daisycut the countryside looking for one man, please understand your history...not just know its facts.
Sellout should get the hellout if he really feels that strongly about the US. Your free speech question shows how little you understand: Free Speech is not to be abridged by the FEDERAL GOVMNT--me suggesting he leave if he is so ashamed has nothing to do with free speech. I have forgotten more than you will ever know about our founding...God fearing is correct about our founding. I a not sure wht you think occurred in the 150 years leading up to 1776, but a seculr society is not what they imagined: a secular government, not a secular society.
I am not concerned that your views are out there...nor do I think I can move them. I just pray there are not many who think like you who have any influence. (The WasPost article at the end of your piece came to different conclusions about the same NatINtel report than others. Now, it is your worldview that will not look at all the info and assessments but will only see the above peice as proof for your position. Irrational and emotional. Articles like the above are a dime a dozen which is why the press has to read and viewed over time. In any situation you can find supporters and detractors...clearheaded thinking and time will out.) While keeping up with the press, one should read books that might encompass years of facts and opinions. Most often, the current press is reporting what will sell to their purchasing base...which colors their take on an event or issue.
I do want to point out that herro should not have been mean at the end of his point-by-point rebuttal. He does not speak for me there. However, he was right on 1-7. We all have the same facts--we just filter them through a different worldview.
My question to you is the sameone you asked me at the beginning: Why did our political elite...
Your tactic of expressing passion about the goals of the founding fathers, etc. was simply a ploy to justify your rants. Gimmee an f'in break about your admiration as a kid. BS. Like everyone else as a kid, you were choking the monkey. Of course if you weren't, that would explain a lot.
"Herro"? "Throbstick"? Go take a potty break while I talk to Streamlined:
So, let me see if I understand you correctly: you agree with SOME FACTS as I've set out; you AGREE with SOME points, re: the lead-up to war; you AGREE with SOME salient points re: the dishonesty of this war......
BUT.....
you "disagree" with the "biased" way in which I've CHOSEN to look at these things/people/places/events?
And YOU are not being "closed minded" or "biased".....right?
OKay...once more...with gusto, and I'll get right down to the chase..LISTEN:
I've gone into this time and time again, and all I get from the right-wing zealots is a lot of personal attacks as their common defence (it's almost predictable), so here goes:
This current war can be summed up as part of a much broader, much consistant pattern with the successive U.S. Administrations since the end of World War II....with a single word:
Blowback.
Since the end of WWII, the U.S. has engaged in a SYSTEMIC and PATTERNED foreign policy of regime-changes, overthrow of democratically-elected governments and anyone else she deemed as not useful towards her own self-interests. Case-in-point: Iran (and this is only ONE example). In 1954, the democratically-elected government of Iran decided it was going to nationalize their resources, i.e. oil; this meant that Iranians, not British or U.S. companies, would have a say in what the hell they do with it. The U.S. and Britain flipped. The CIA engineered a coup, that overthrew the government, and installed...guess who?...the Shah!! For the next 25 years, this asswipe ruled the country with the CIA's help; using his secret police, known as "Savvak", to systemically brutalize and oppress ordinary folk; engage in torture; and basically terrorize the entire nation. In 1979, the Iranians had enough, and said "fuck you", and exploded by taking over the American embassy, culminating in a hostage situation that went on and on; at this point, over at the Canadian embassy, Ambassador Ken Taylor, our diplomat, put his life as well as that of his own staff at huge risk, to smuggle six U.S. embassy workers out of that country (so much for being "cowards", huh Herro? Fucking ingrate. You're welcome). And now? Well, guess what? Iran is becoming the boogeyman once again, thanks to Georgie-Boy and his pals.
As I've said...this is ONE example of the CIA-coined term "blowback"; the list is many: Noriega; Pinochet; Batista, ad nauseum.
Have the West been battling "terrorists" for the last 30 years? Yes.......
BECAUSE YOU'RE GODDAMN GOVERNMENT KEEPS CREATING THEM!!
Blowback.
Blowback.
BLOWBACK.
And this policy...is why you're in the mess you're in now; and WE are in the mess WE'RE in (Afghanistan).
P.S. 15 out of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were Saudi shitbags.....not a single Afghan or Iraqi (the rest were Egyptian).
Why is your government STILL treating them with such....finesse? Such gosh-darn-it...warmth?
Sure there is blowback. On planet earth, that is called life. I know you felt you were making a point but no...you simply stated in too many curse-ridden sentences what can be said in one: All events and actions now are consequences of previous events.
Your opening sentence is not exactly how I laid it out...I was saying (deep breath) we tend to look at many of the same facts only trough different prisms. (I have never agreed that we were mislead into the war nor have I said so. Look, if there were 15 points for going to war and 7 of them proved to be either wrong or TLI, does that mean the other 8 are tossed?)
CORRECT: Not being closed minded. Was once the type of thinker you were so I have the (slightly shameful) advantage of hindsight into my previous worldview and how it affects me now.
Your paragraph on the brief history of Iran proves my largest point. To wit: Thank you. However, you arrive at one of the stupidest (Not ignorant, because you know better) statements ever uttered anywhere: "BECAUSE YOU'RE GD [sic] GOVERNMENT KEEPS CREATING THEM!!" That odious bit of sewage sums up why I think people like you are wackos.
(Deep breath--find a happy place)
If I cede that what you say factually about the US is true (I don't-but for the sake of the argument): Please explain the regular terrorist attacks on countries not kind to the US in any large way. You see, this brand of Islamic fananticism is 900 years old and the tactics are largely the same by its adherents. You won't see that since your view is that America is the root of all of this.
Turmoil is to be expected with peoples of different beliefs. US admins have had many different approaches to Islamic fanaticism for the last 200 years. It is about time we took an offensive approach. I do not agree with all of my countries decisions, nor do I like all that we have sown. But none of that changes where we are today and what must be done.
The saudi question is simple but takes time: like our admins, theirs has been slow to change, at the ground level. The saudis that hate us did not receive their training in Saudi Arabia. (There is blatant racism in your question. The war is on Islamic fanaticism and terror, not on Saudis.)
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